Generations of Heroes

[superiorcrisis]

I wasn't sure whether this should go in the DC or Marvel forum, so I put it in DC because they looked like they were going to do this in the 90s (obviously they didn't).

Why don't comics have different generations? At the most there's the WW2 generation and everyone else. It annoys me that most of the 1940s heroes got old, retired and were replaced by a new generation (like in real life) but the 1960s generation lasts forever, barely aging, and every other generation just joins them. Now, I realize that the only reason there are even two generations is because superheroes stopped being published for a decade. But now that there's a precedent, I think that there should be more than just two.

Like I said, it looked like DC was going to do this in the 90s--they had a third Flash, a third Green Lantern, a second green arrow - even a second Superman and Batman (technically, four second Supermen) for a while! But Superman and Batman came back quickly, and the rest came back in the 2000s. Now, with the New 52, even the WW2 generation is gone!

It's also annoying that all the Marvel comics set during 30s-50s comics (in DC they're all non-canon) can have dates and references to the times (like WW2 or FDR) but comics set during later comics (like Untold Tales of S-M) can only say "a few years ago".

I know this post is convoluted--it's the first thread I've started. Basically what I'm saying is that I wish there were three or more generations of heroes, and I'm wondering what you all think (and this thread is about Marvel too--there just isn't a generic comics forum).

[colonyofcells]

One of the oldest superheroes Phantom does have generations but only 1 guy is needed in the comic so the rest of the generations are just history. Sometimes, popular characters get a long history such as Wolverine. Family shows can have multiple generations of characters and once comics diversity, there could be comics for the whole family that have multiple generations like grampa simpson, homer and bart. Cw caters to teen customers and tend to focus on the younger characters. Dc currently wants younger customers so it is very similar to the CW tv shows which often does not have old characters or very few old characters.

[The Darknight Detective]

Since Clark, Bruce, and Diana are never going to be retired or really killed off, they place a barrier on any DC universe from perpetually aging. Just the way it is.

[Ascended]

Since Clark, Bruce, and Diana are never going to be retired or really killed off, they place a barrier on any DC universe from perpetually aging. Just the way it is.

This.

That said, right before the reboot we did have five generations going.

JSA era; Jay Garrick, Allan Scott, Ted Knight.

JLA era; Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Barry Allen, (Infinity Inc seemed to be around this age, though a bit younger perhaps)

Titans era; Dick Grayson, Roy Harper, Wally West,

Young Justice era; Tim Drake, Cassie Sandsmark, Bart Allen,

and then we had Damien Wayne, Iris West, and one or two others (???) starting up the next, un-named generation.

And across post-Crisis (or there-abouts) we got to see about ten to fifteen years pass in continuity; so we did see the Titans go from teens to young adults, we got to see the League go from mid-to-late twenties to mid-to-late thirties or even early forties. We got to see the Young Justice kids go through high school.

[colonyofcells]

It is easier in the dcu to have all heroes be forever young like Supes, Bats and WW. The college age heroes can also be forever young and stay in college forever. Probably simpler to have only 2 categories : heroes who are working and heroes who are still in college. With self contained titles, it should be ok for Bruce Wayne to be an adult in 1 title and a college student in another title. It is also possible to do elseworlds to examine a Superman who got real old. Right now, DC has no place for Jay Garrick and Alan Scott on earth 0 so these have to be in an alternate earth that hopefully, will be interesting to visit. Most of the alternate earths have a slightly different history to make them more interesting to visit.
Easier to form teams if all the heroes are about the same age. JL can use Cyborg, Starfire, Changeling, etc. Titans can use Kaldur, Atom, Firestorm, Zatanna, Bunker, etc. Heroes stuck with the silly boy girl code names can be dumped into JL academy and or Young Justice : Superboy, Supergirl, Wonder girl, Aqualad, Power Girl, kidflash, etc.

[BohemiaDrinker]

And across post-Crisis (or there-abouts) we got to see about ten to fifteen years pass in continuity;

It was actually about 8 years. Original Titans started the post crisis period at 19, endede up about 27. Billy Batson went from 10 to about 17, and so on. Of course, you'll find flaws in this (like Animal Man's kids), but overall, that's pretty much how much time passed from day one post-Crisis to Flashpoint.

[superiorcrisis]

This.

That said, right before the reboot we did have five generations going.

JSA era; Jay Garrick, Allan Scott, Ted Knight.

JLA era; Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, Barry Allen, (Infinity Inc seemed to be around this age, though a bit younger perhaps)

Titans era; Dick Grayson, Roy Harper, Wally West,

Young Justice era; Tim Drake, Cassie Sandsmark, Bart Allen,

and then we had Damien Wayne, Iris West, and one or two others (???) starting up the next, un-named generation.

And across post-Crisis (or there-abouts) we got to see about ten to fifteen years pass in continuity; so we did see the Titans go from teens to young adults, we got to see the League go from mid-to-late twenties to mid-to-late thirties or even early forties. We got to see the Young Justice kids go through high school.

Well, that's true. But what I was getting at was the third-fifth generations replacing the second generation, like on earth-16, or how the second generation replaced the first generation (the first generation was still around pre-52, but they had retired when the second generation debuted, and when they came back, they weren't the main heroes anymore). The characters always talk about "when the next generation replaces us", but they never do, mostly due to comic book time.

[colonyofcells]

Flash had a strange history of replacements : Jay, Barry, Wally, Bart, Wally, Barry, so now we are stuck with Barry till the next reboots.

[andersonh1]

One of the things I really enjoyed about Mark Waid's Flash was the generational aspect. That's probably what introduced me to that concept as far as DC's heroes go. I loved seeing Jay Garrick around, along with Johnny Quick and Max Mercury. Wally had a contemporary in Jesse Quick, and then Bart Allen was introduced. It feels like an extended family of characters, and a lot more like real life than nothing but young 20-something single heroes running around.

[superiorcrisis]

Ha ha! My thread has 65 replies! Now it can go into syndication!

One of the oldest superheroes Phantom does have generations but only 1 guy is needed in the comic so the rest of the generations are just history. Sometimes, popular characters get a long history such as Wolverine. Family shows can have multiple generations of characters and once comics diversity, there could be comics for the whole family that have multiple generations like grampa simpson, homer and bart. Cw caters to teen customers and tend to focus on the younger characters. Dc currently wants younger customers so it is very similar to the CW tv shows which often does not have old characters or very few old characters.

Wait--what? We don't do that?

[cgh]

It's also annoying that all the Marvel comics set during 30s-50s comics (in DC they're all non-canon) can have dates and references to the times (like WW2 or FDR) but comics set during later comics (like Untold Tales of S-M) can only say "a few years ago".

There's a pretty well-known theory that Franklin Richards controls "Marvel time" and causes the shifting. Basically, he controls the passage of time so that what may have occurred in WW2 later appears to have taken place during eg the Iraq conflict.

Anyway, I generally agree with the gist of your post. I would like a DC universe that took place in real time - ten years' worth of comics would be ten years in the DCU, after which maybe there was some event and a reboot, or another generation takes over, or whatever.

[Dataweaver]

Like I said, it looked like DC was going to do this in the 90s--they had a third Flash, a third Green Lantern, a second green arrow - even a second Superman and Batman (technically, four second Supermen) for a while! But Superman and Batman came back quickly, and the rest came back in the 2000s. Now, with the New 52, even the WW2 generation is gone!

What happened was that a new editorial department came in in the 00s and decided that the newly-forming generation of heroes wasn’t “iconic” enough and started restoring the ones that they viewed as iconic.

The Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman “replacements” from the 90s were never going to be anything more than brief substitutes, as all three were conceived as placeholders/usurpers for storylines built around “the hero loses his/her title and has to reclaim it”.

That said, even in the 00s there were elements of the “new generation of heroes” idea sticking around. In particular, the final JLA arc just before Flashpoint was composed entirely of a new generation of heroes.

Still, there’s the Multiverse. Earth-16 is a world that features the heroes of the 90s (plus a few new faces such as Chris Kent and Damian Wayne) on a world where the 60s generation has passed on; unfortunately, it’s wedded to the notion that the 60s generation stomped out the criminal element, leaving their successors with nothing to do and resulting in the new generation leading shallow, meaningless lives. Earth-38(?) is patterned after John Byrne’s aptly-named “Generations” series, which posits exactly what you’re advocating: a world where the heroes first appeared in the 40s and then aged normally, being replaced by new generations of heroes (except for Superman and Batman, the former having a very long lifespan and the latter having acquired Ras al Ghul’s Lazarus Pits).

And then there’s Convergence, which has the potential to bring back some of the pre-Flashpoint continuity alongside the New 52 — and if so, the fact that the New 52 is populated by the “iconic” generation should free the pre-Flashpoint continuity to develop independently, perhaps finally achieving that “third generation” of heroes that you’ve been talking about. In that regard, it would be a spiritual successor to the pre-Crisis Earth-2 stories, which also featured the first generation of heroes growing old and a new generation rising up to carry on their legacy.

[colonyofcells]

Dc decided to make it easier for new customers by erasing history. Just as there is only 1 Superman, there is only 1 Flash instead of Jay, Barry, Wally, Bart, Iris West, etc. The advantage of the mickey mouse approach is Superman is the first superhero similar to real comic book history from the 1940s and Flash Jay Garrick did not come before Superman. In the real 1940s comic history, Superman came first and then followed by other heroes like Jay Garrick. New 52 was as if the golden age or silver age started only 5 years ago and most of the heroes are about the same age as Superman, the first superhero.

[superiorcrisis]

What happened was that a new editorial department came in in the 00s and decided that the newly-forming generation of heroes wasn’t “iconic” enough and started restoring the ones that they viewed as iconic.

The Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman “replacements” from the 90s were never going to be anything more than brief substitutes, as all three were conceived as placeholders/usurpers for storylines built around “the hero loses his/her title and has to reclaim it”.

That said, even in the 00s there were elements of the “new generation of heroes” idea sticking around. In particular, the final JLA arc just before Flashpoint was composed entirely of a new generation of heroes.

Still, there’s the Multiverse. Earth-16 is a world that features the heroes of the 90s (plus a few new faces such as Chris Kent and Damian Wayne) on a world where the 60s generation has passed on; unfortunately, it’s wedded to the notion that the 60s generation stomped out the criminal element, leaving their successors with nothing to do and resulting in the new generation leading shallow, meaningless lives. Earth-38(?) is patterned after John Byrne’s aptly-named “Generations” series, which posits exactly what you’re advocating: a world where the heroes first appeared in the 40s and then aged normally, being replaced by new generations of heroes (except for Superman and Batman, the former having a very long lifespan and the latter having acquired Ras al Ghul’s Lazarus Pits).

And then there’s Convergence, which has the potential to bring back some of the pre-Flashpoint continuity alongside the New 52 — and if so, the fact that the New 52 is populated by the “iconic” generation should free the pre-Flashpoint continuity to develop independently, perhaps finally achieving that “third generation” of heroes that you’ve been talking about. In that regard, it would be a spiritual successor to the pre-Crisis Earth-2 stories, which also featured the first generation of heroes growing old and a new generation rising up to carry on their legacy.

Yes, I realize Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were never intended to stay dead. I was just looking at it from the perspective of a fan at the time.

When I first started buying DC, I looked at the Robinson JLA and thought "a Justice League full of second stringers? I'm out." So maybe I'm part of the problem.

Oh, and like you said, earth-16 and especially generations (I should read that sometime) are exactly what I was talking about.

But I don't think the pre-flashpoint characters will continue after Convergence.

[Dataweaver]

Yes, I realize Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were never intended to stay dead. I was just looking at it from the perspective of a fan at the time.

When I first started buying DC, I looked at the Robinson JLA and thought "a Justice League full of second stringers? I'm out." So maybe I'm part of the problem.

Basically, yeah. As long as the next generation is viewed as “second stringers”, they’re going to have a hard time getting the spotlight; and as long as they’re not getting the spotlight, they’re not going to get a chance to be viewed as anything other than “second stringers”.

This, I think, is the heart of the Titans curse — which gets exacerbated when DC’s management tosses them aside for not being iconic enough. Heck, Dick Grayson very nearly got offed in Infinite Crisis because Didio couldn’t see him becoming Batman or reverting to Robin and so deemed him expendible; Grayson was only saved by an outpouring of support for him from seemingly everyone Didio talked to — others of his generation didn’t have the benefit of such an overwhelming show of support. And that’s why the Titans generation had such a rough time of it from 2003 to the present: to a large extent, what positive exposure they got was despite upper management; and their failures effectively became self-fulfilling prophecies.

Oh, and like you said, earth-16 and especially generations (I should read that sometime) are exactly what I was talking about.

But I don't think the pre-flashpoint characters will continue after Convergence.

We’ll have to wait until, say, November or December to know for sure. Didio has said that Convergence will have consequences, and that the April and May sales figures will be informing what those consequences will be; so the earliest that the true impact (or lack thereof) of Convergence will be seen will be four months after the end of May.