Generations of Heroes

[colonyofcells]

New 52 tended to choose the more popular versions. Zatanna is more popular than Zatara so New 52 went with the legacy Zatanna. Geoff Johns chose his favorite Stargirl (based on his dead sister) over the golden age originals Sylvester Pemberton and Stripesy. Some of the older versions seem to be coming back like Ray Palmer and Ted Kord. Tv shows often go back to the originals like Ronnie and Prof Stein which could also influence the comic books.

[Dataweaver]

Yes, I realize Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were never intended to stay dead. I was just looking at it from the perspective of a fan at the time.

When I first started buying DC, I looked at the Robinson JLA and thought "a Justice League full of second stringers? I'm out." So maybe I'm part of the problem.

Basically, yeah. As long as the next generation is viewed as “second stringers”, they’re going to have a hard time getting the spotlight; and as long as they’re not getting the spotlight, they’re not going to get a chance to be viewed as anything other than “second stringers”.

This, I think, is the heart of the Titans curse — which gets exacerbated when DC’s management tosses them aside for not being iconic enough. Heck, Dick Grayson very nearly got offed in Infinite Crisis because Didio couldn’t see him becoming Batman or reverting to Robin and so deemed him expendible; Grayson was only saved by an outpouring of support for him from seemingly everyone Didio talked to — others of his generation didn’t have the benefit of such an overwhelming show of support. And that’s why the Titans generation had such a rough time of it from 2003 to the present: to a large extent, what positive exposure they got was despite upper management; and their failures effectively became self-fulfilling prophecies.

Oh, and like you said, earth-16 and especially generations (I should read that sometime) are exactly what I was talking about.

But I don't think the pre-flashpoint characters will continue after Convergence.

We’ll have to wait until, say, November or December to know for sure. Didio has said that Convergence will have consequences, and that the April and May sales figures will be informing what those consequences will be; so the earliest that the true impact (or lack thereof) of Convergence will be seen will be four months after the end of May.

[superiorcrisis]

We’ll have to wait until, say, November or December to know for sure. Didio has said that Convergence will have consequences, and that the April and May sales figures will be informing what those consequences will be; so the earliest that the true impact (or lack thereof) of Convergence will be seen will be four months after the end of May.

Hmm. I had not heard that. Then we'll see. I do hope the pre-52 universes stay around.

[The Darknight Detective]

This, I think, is the heart of the Titans curse — which gets exacerbated when DC’s management tosses them aside for not being iconic enough. Heck, Dick Grayson very nearly got offed in Infinite Crisis because Didio couldn’t see him becoming Batman or reverting to Robin and so deemed him expendible; Grayson was only saved by an outpouring of support for him from seemingly everyone Didio talked to — others of his generation didn’t have the benefit of such an overwhelming show of support. And that’s why the Titans generation had such a rough time of it from 2003 to the present: to a large extent, what positive exposure they got was despite upper management; and their failures effectively became self-fulfilling prophecies.

Dick was never going to be permanently killed off. He's too iconic for that to ever happen, plus he's more well known than the vast majority of the superheroes you can think of.

[Jim Kelly]

One of my favourite things that John Byrne ever did was GENERATIONS. The first two series were excellent--the third not so much, but a noble effort.

I would like to see his generations of super-heroes become a thing in the DC multiverse.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Dick was never going to be permanently killed off. He's too iconic for that to ever happen, plus he's more well known than the vast majority of the superheroes you can think of.

"Permanently" is a complicated word, though. Would he be dead forever? I doubt it. Would he be dead until today? Probably.

[The Darknight Detective]

One of my favourite things that John Byrne ever did was GENERATIONS. The first two series were excellent--the third not so much, but a noble effort.

I would like to see his generations of super-heroes become a thing in the DC multiverse.

I think it's Byrne's best work, IMO.

[The Darknight Detective]

"Permanently" is a complicated word, though. Would he be dead forever? I doubt it. Would he be dead until today? Probably.

I was thinking more Clark and Bruce "dead."

[BohemiaDrinker]

I was thinking more Clark and Bruce "dead."

Yeah, here's the thing: You may look at Dick Grayson as a "Bruce Wayne" kind of deal, as do I. But if Didio didn't back then (and he didn't), had he gotten his way, the character would remain dead or MIA. Or he'd get Parallaxed, like Wally. As classic as he is, he was only a big Seller as Batman - and that had Morrison.

When Didio doesn't understand the appeal of a character, that character is usually in a bad situation. Dick grayson was the one situation (regarding this sorts oif things) he could be talked out of,

[The Darknight Detective]

Yeah, here's the thing: You may look at Dick Grayson as a "Bruce Wayne" kind of deal, as do I. But if Didio didn't back then (and he didn't), had he gotten his way, the character would remain dead or MIA. Or he'd get Parallaxed, like Wally. As classic as he is, he was only a big Seller as Batman - and that had Morrison.

When Didio doesn't understand the appeal of a character, that character is usually in a bad situation. Dick grayson was the one situation (regarding this sorts oif things) he could be talked out of,

The difference between Dick and Wally, though, is the average non-comics-reading person has heard the name "Dick Grayson" before and knows he is/was Robin. Wally? If the average person knows who the Flash is, I doubt he or she could tell you his name (though that might change a little with the CW show now - not that it would help Wally, of course .

But even if Didio really had a moment when he didn't really understand Dick's iconic status, the bottom line is Dick is still with us and is selling quite a few comics, too. I mean, there was talk about DC cancelling Batman books 50-something years ago despite being a big seller. It didn't happen then, either. Management might have momentary fits of insanity, but they tend to be brief and reversible.

[Buried Alien]

Management might have momentary fits of insanity, but they tend to be brief and reversible.

Only we comic book fans are so unforgiving of sins CONSIDERED, but never committed, YEARS after the fact.

Even the Deity of the Old Testament didn't condemn until AFTER a sin was actually committed; the Deity never punished anyone just for *considering* a sinful act.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[mr_crisp]

I was wondering the same thing. Nice to see someone start a thread on it.

[BohemiaDrinker]

The difference between Dick and Wally, though, is the average non-comics-reading person has heard the name "Dick Grayson" before and knows he is/was Robin. Wally? If the average person knows who the Flash is, I doubt he or she could tell you his name (though that might change a little with the CW show now - not that it would help Wally, of course .

Hey, you don't have to tell me the difference. Someone had to tell Didio, though. His point, as with most characters, is that people buy just the "powers/costume" combo. And in that sense, "Nightwing" was a nobody. He probably has learned better by now, with no one leaving him alone about Wally, Cass, Steph and such.

However, as I just pointed out, for every Dick Grayson there are lots of Cass'es, Wallys and Stephs; viable, well-liked and in some cases pretty good sellers that went away because they didn't "fit" his views.

But even if Didio really had a moment when he didn't really understand Dick's iconic status, the bottom line is Dick is still with us and is selling quite a few comics, too. I mean, there was talk about DC cancelling Batman books 50-something years ago despite being a big seller. It didn't happen then, either. Management might have momentary fits of insanity, but they tend to be brief and reversible.

Sure; but can we really say that Batman would still be what he is today, or even have returned at all, if that was the case? I don't know, but what I'm saying is; if editorial had got it's way back at the time of Infinte Crisis, Dick would not have returned by now.

[The Darknight Detective]

Sure; but can we really say that Batman would still be what he is today, or even have returned at all, if that was the case? I don't know, but what I'm saying is; if editorial had got it's way back at the time of Infinte Crisis, Dick would not have returned by now.

We don't know that at all. There's just no way Dick Grayson stays in limbo that long. He's no where near the Cassie/ Wally/Stephanie (okay, Wally isn't really in that territory, either, but he's still below Dick Grayson) territory when it comes to the average person in regard to name recognition. But it's a moot point, since we can't prove our points of view either way.

[BohemiaDrinker]

But it's a moot point, since we can't prove our points of view either way.

Well, thank God, because I'd hate to be proven right with this.

But yes, the only thing we can use to draw any conclusion here is the M.O of the current management. And going by that, if Didido was sucesful in pulling Grayson fro the universe, he'd not be back, and every time anyone asked for his return he'd just wing it.

There would probably be a lot of Dick jokes at conventions, also.