Generations of Heroes

[BohemiaDrinker]

Or like Green Lantern, Flash, Dr. Fate, the Spectre, Hawkman, Hourman, Dr. Mid-nite, the Atom… You don’t have to be a patriot-themed hero to be suitable for a WWII-based origin.

That said, I’m not even saying that the lesson to take from Captain America and Agent Carter is that you should have a WWII/50s-based superheroes age; rather, the lesson is that having a history that spans decades rather than a handful of years is entirely compatible with a Cinematic Universe.

I'm not worried about the DCCU. They're doing okay in my book.* An older Batman, a bearded Aquaman; throw in a Lantern that is not Jordan and I'm the happiest man alive.

[Dataweaver]

My point is that the notion that the audience needs to be there “from ground zero” is at odds with the success of Captain America and Agent Carter. There’s room for “there was a past generation of heroes; and we’ll be telling you about them and their impact on the present in due time”. And that applies at least as much to the comics as it does to TV and the movies.

[BohemiaDrinker]

My point is that the notion that the audience needs to be there “from ground zero” is at odds with the success of Captain America and Agent Carter. There’s room for “there was a past generation of heroes; and we’ll be telling you about them and their impact on the present in due time”. And that applies at least as much to the comics as it does to TV and the movies.

Oh, I agree completely. DC execs, probably, not so much.

But let's be fair with DC/WB here; Superman comes with all the Krypton mythology behind him. Green Lantern with the GLC. WW with the amazons. Aquman with Atlantis. They're will be tons of "previous history" even at ground zero of a heroic age.

Except for Batman; which apparently will be already older and established. That's what I meant.

With the comics, I feel, is a different matter. A comic reader can take Atlantis or Themyscira at face value and move on, even a new reader, because the media lends itself to it. So, in the comics, I believe that the lack of individual, unique and somewhat specific hitory for the characters does more harm than good. In the movies, I think they're on the right path.

[colonyofcells]

It is easy to tell stories of the past like past stories of the immortal Joker when Gotham City was founded, past stories of the immortal ras al ghul, visitors from krypton, visits from greek gods, past visits from alien green lanterns, stories of the creature commandos during world war 2, easy company, etc.

[Agent Z]

I think the problem of expecting the characters to age is due to people reading these characters when they're young and continuing to read them when they grow older, expecting the comics to change along with them. Batman, Dick as Robin, the Joker and all the classic characters were all brand new to me when I first started watching B:TAS when I was a child. And by that point, in 1993, Batman had already been a household name for decades.

If I ever get tired of the Batman vs. Joker conflict, it's not really the fault of the characters, but my continued interest when I can just move on to other things. Those type of stories are always going to be new to somebody. I love all this stuff to, but their comes a time when you need to stop expecting too much from these family/children oriented characters and let younger generations enjoy the characters as they are meant to be, and maybe new (non-legacy) heroes that they can call their own.

Thing is characters like Wally West, Jaime Reyes and Cass Cain were new for other people to and in some cases were their intro to the DCU. The difference between them and the characters you mentioned is DC is more interested in preserving not because they are inherently better (I think all characters have some merit and should be treated with respect as long as they have a decent amount of fans) but because they are 'icons'.

[superiorcrisis]

In regards to the movie debate, I would argue that the comics do not need to have the same characters as the comics. Even the most inexperienced reader, who doesn't know that the comics and movies are in different universes, would at least realize that the movies are at the beginning of the characters’ careers, while the comics take place after decades of history (they wouldn't know about reboots). If they saw a different character (like Wally-Flash or Sam Wilson-Captain America), they would just realize “OK, something must have happened to Barry or Rogers in an earlier comic.” After all, they know they’re not reading the first Flash or Captain America comic.

[colonyofcells]

Dc used to have Bart in the Smallville live action tv show, Barry in a live action tv show and Wally in the comics. I don't believe dc plans to return to the old way of confusing multiple versions again. Even if the Hal movie was a flop, dc will probably just reboot Hal in the movies rather than introduce a new GL version (John, guy, kyle) for the movies to replace Hal in the movie JL. Pre flashpoint, there were already around 5 generations of flashes which I would assume is harder to follow than the new 52 1 generation idea.

[Dataweaver]

On that last point, they don’t seem to have any problem keeping four iterations of Robin (Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian), and five concurrent Green Lanterns (not counting the aliens). And with Future’s End and Earth 2, we’ve got three generations of Batman: Thomas Wayne, Bruce Wayne, and Terry McGuiness(sp?).

The argument that five generations is harder to follow than one is a vast oversimplification. And with their promise to follow Convergence with a new era of publication where story trumps continuity, I suspect that DC may be returning to the oldest way of “confusing” multiple versions of all: something more akin to the Golden Age’s continuity-free publications.

[colonyofcells]

For post convergence, each title looks like will focus on its own story and the model assumes most mainstream customers won't buy every title so there won't be so much confusion about the separate continuities in each title. The style of strict continuity catered more to the zombie customers who bought all or most of the titles. For the new 52 that allowed the too many robins in batman history after they cut out 1 female robin, this exception seems to have been allowed bec. it was still making money and my guess is future reboots will go back to just 1 robin to keep things simple. Other media has 0 robin (batman movies) or just 1 robin (dick grayson in the teen titans cartoon). In the tv Titans, looks like there is also only 1 robin Dick Grayson as a former robin. Young Justice cartoon seems to have reached up to around 2 generations of robins in its 2nd season and there were also cameos by a dead robin display. The other media obviously prefers just 1 robin (dick grayson), or at most 2 since damian is quite popular and the future comic book reboots will probably align more with the other media. Movies don't seem to need a robin at all but I am sure the cartoons for kids still need at least 1 robin so should be ok for the comics to keep 1 or 2 robins in the future reboots. In comics, the best batman stories also have 0 robin.

[Dataweaver]

For post convergence, each title looks like will focus on its own story and the model assumes most mainstream customers won't buy every title so there won't be so much confusion about the separate continuities in each title. The style of strict continuity catered more to the zombie customers who bought all or most of the titles.

This.

For the new 52 that allowed the too many robins in batman history after they cut out 1 female robin, this exception seems to have been allowed bec. it was still making money and my guess is future reboots will go back to just 1 robin to keep things simple.

This “exception” was allowed because all four Robins had substantial fanbases and what were deemed useful roles in the comics at the time.

Other media has 0 robin (batman movies)

Robin Blake. He never wore the costume; but he was Robin in every way that matters.

or just 1 robin (dick grayson in the teen titans cartoon).

[colonyofcells]

In the batman movies, maybe the real robin was gordon or maybe it was alfred like in the cartoon beware the batman. I like the killer Alfred. Alfred and Bruce Wayne can probably be counted as 2 generations. I am also ok with police chief miles o'hara being a sort of robin.