Multiversity Guidebook and DC continuity discussion and clarification

[theonetruebatman]

NOTE: I tried looking for a thread on this subject but didn't find one. So sorry in advance if this has been beaten to death.

So I just read the guidebook and I have to say I kind of have more questions and less answers than I hoped for. I guess I am having a hard time with the lack of clarification and really in some ways blatant contradictions and murkiness of what is really happening. With that said it isn't to say I don't like the story or what DC has done since the New 52 started. I actually quite like it. I just wish there was a little less flip flopping on the agenda. It seems like more or less DC is trying to have their cake and eat it too. Which is fine. It just seems like the answer always changes when it comes to things in or out.

Here are what some of the things I could maybe be helped out with a little and we can have a fun discussion perhaps.

1. Didio said at one point none of the crisis' happened and then they have been brought up in both Batman and Robin as well as the guidebook. Is it really still "This happened but not the way you remember it?" With that being said Darkseid's tomb is on Earth 51. Didn't earth 51 get destroyed in countdown by The Monarch/Cap Atom?

2. With that said is there still a Superboy Prime? He is mentioned in the guidebook but then they say Earth 33 has only one known hero. That contradicts itself. If Superboy prime still lives that would be cool with me. I think he should still remember everything from Pre-FP too.

3. Is the tomb of Darkseid a tomb from Final Crisis then or did he die somehow else?

4. Also, Nix Utoan, he's evil now? Or is he under Darkseids control somehow? Is this resurrection then placed before the New 52 JL fought him and he remembers the other reality? And are there still monitors now or not? I guess I am confused on that front because of all the artillery that is shown on the map. Why have it there if they are truly all dead? And also what did this mean exactly for the Anti-Monitor? I am so down for Darkseid War. Do you think that there will be a Monitor other than Nix in that story?

5. Does anyone else hope that after CONVERGENCE the cat finally comes out of the bag on Pandora and perhaps even our heroes know, remember, and understand that the reality they are in now is not the reality of before? I would be totally okay with that outcome as long as it's known. If it were similar to how say Rory in Doctor Who remembered the aborted timeline I think it would be great. This whole ignorance to the situation is even more frustrating than how it similarly was after Zero Hour. I guess I don't quite understand why Geoff Johns made a point for Phantom Stranger to confront Pandora over what she did but then have no other reference to it in the end.

Anyone have any insight or anything to add? I am going to be at Emerald City Comic Con and I hope to be able to ask some of the writers for some insight on this as well. If you have any questions you'd like me to ask I would be willing.

Anyways, let the discussion begin!

[NeonZ]

The Crisis don't exist in the history of the current Earth-0, but Batman still did have a personal encounter with Darkseid's forces that led to his temporary death, or something similar. The Crisis do still exist though in a multiversal sense - other Earths that had less changed histories still seem to acknowledge the Crisis, like how Overman still seems to have lost his Supegirl counterpart in Final Crisis. And obviously there's also the point of view from outside any worlds, like the Monitor(s) and Pre-Crisis Brainiac in Convergence.

1. Didio said at one point none of the crisis' happened and then they have been brought up in both Batman and Robin as well as the guidebook. Is it really still "This happened but not the way you remember it?" With that being said Darkseid's tomb is on Earth 51. Didn't earth 51 get destroyed in countdown by The Monarch/Cap Atom?

Earht-51 is rebuilt and the New Gods are reborn there in Final Crisis.

2. With that said is there still a Superboy Prime? He is mentioned in the guidebook but then they say Earth 33 has only one known hero. That contradicts itself. If Superboy prime still lives that would be cool with me. I think he should still remember everything from Pre-FP too.

He could live as an anomaly from the previous universe, so he wouldn't be in the story of the new Earth 33.

3. Is the tomb of Darkseid a tomb from Final Crisis then or did he die somehow else?

It could be a reference to Earth-51's own history, but it's presumably referencing Final Crisis, since those are supposed to be the "real" New Gods.

4. Also, Nix Utoan, he's evil now? Or is he under Darkseids control somehow?

He's under the control of someone who can't be named, who also seems to be behind the "Empty hand", so not Darkseid.

5. Does anyone else hope that after CONVERGENCE the cat finally comes out of the bag on Pandora and perhaps even our heroes know, remember, and understand that the reality they are in now is not the reality of before?

But Convergence will have the pre-flashpoint characters as separate characters from the post-flashpoint ones, so I don't think it'd go in that direction.

[GlennSimpson]

Just a comment on #1 above - what Didio and writers and whatnot say in interviews shouldn't be taken as continuity. That said, I believe when he said it, he meant "from the point of view of the new52 characters and the history they are aware of" whereas the Guidebook is taking a more omniscient role of someone who is outside the new52 (kinda like us readers) and who knows that events like COIE happened.

[Black Angel]

This is why comic fans shouldn't take interviews as canon since there are so many writers.

The prime thing i have no idea maybe he still is an anomaly and existed on earth 33 when it was still earth prime i'm sure they can find a way to connect him to it.

[GlennSimpson]

This is why comic fans shouldn't take interviews as canon since there are so many writers.

The prime thing i have no idea maybe he still is an anomaly and existed on earth 33 when it was still earth prime i'm sure they can find a way to connect him to it.

I think it would be accurate to say that he came from the pre-Crisis Earth Prime, and then spent some time on the post Infinite Crisis/pre-new-52 Earth 33/Prime, but officially never came from or lived on the post-new-52 33/Prime (whew!). I don't recall the reference to him but again, it might have been from the narrator who is above these Flashpoint-type changes.

[LordUltimus]

I think it would be accurate to say that he came from the pre-Crisis Earth Prime, and then spent some time on the post Infinite Crisis/pre-new-52 Earth 33/Prime, but officially never came from or lived on the post-new-52 33/Prime (whew!). I don't recall the reference to him but again, it might have been from the narrator who is above these Flashpoint-type changes.

It's specifically mentioned that Earth-15, the Perfect Universe was killed by Superboy-Prime of Earth 33.

This officially makes Countdown canon, incidentally.

[BohemiaDrinker]

It's specifically mentioned that Earth-15, the Perfect Universe was killed by Superboy-Prime of Earth 33.

This officially makes Countdown canon, incidentally.

Technically, yes. But there was the whole "Space-Time is broken due to the fall of Darkseid" allowing for an easy way out about stuff in Countdown. I believe Countdown was written based on some loose plot ideas by Morrison, and the team on that book then screwed up. Morrison seems to be using hos ideas and ignoring the rest; which is fine by me.

[GlennSimpson]

It's specifically mentioned that Earth-15, the Perfect Universe was killed by Superboy-Prime of Earth 33.

This officially makes Countdown canon, incidentally.

Well that does contradict itself, doesn't it?

Again, I would assume the best explanation is some sort of pre-New52 vs post-New52 thing, but not sure exactly how it would pan out.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Well that does contradict itself, doesn't it?

Again, I would assume the best explanation is some sort of pre-New52 vs post-New52 thing, but not sure exactly how it would pan out.

Well, it's as simple as "not all Earths were rebooted by Flashpoint".

Because they weren't, really; and since Prime was always an anomaly from Pre-Crisis (even if folded into Earth-33 by the post-Infinite Crisis Multiverse) it's not really that big of a deal.

It's also fair to notice that, sincee the OP seems to be confused about "Earth 33 having only one Super-Hero" that as far as I can remember, Suérboy Prime was never a Super-Hero in Earth Prime. He gets his powers, goes straight to COIE, than hgoes to the Cristal City, stays there until Infinite Crisis, becomes a villain, the happens Countdown/Final Crisis, etc.

He only returns to Earth 33 during Legion of 3 Worlds, powerless (If I'm not mistaken). In Blackest Night he regains his powers for a very limited period of time, is not a super-hero by any stretch, and it's strongly implied that he dies at the end. (He would later appears in Teen Titans, but that's Earth-0 again).

So, basically, even if there's a Prime in our Earth right now, we just never became aware of him.

[LordUltimus]

Well, it's as simple as "not all Earths were rebooted by Flashpoint".

Because they weren't, really; and since Prime was always an anomaly from Pre-Crisis (even if folded into Earth-33 by the post-Infinite Crisis Multiverse) it's not really that big of a deal.

It's also fair to notice that, sincee the OP seems to be confused about "Earth 33 having only one Super-Hero" that as far as I can remember, Suérboy Prime was never a Super-Hero in Earth Prime. He gets his powers, goes straight to COIE, than hgoes to the Cristal City, stays there until Infinite Crisis, becomes a villain, the happens Countdown/Final Crisis, etc.

He only returns to Earth 33 during Legion of 3 Worlds, powerless (If I'm not mistaken). In Blackest Night he regains his powers for a very limited period of time, is not a super-hero by any stretch, and it's strongly implied that he dies at the end. (He would later appears in Teen Titans, but that's Earth-0 again).

So, basically, even if there's a Prime in our Earth right now, we just never became aware of him.

Didn't Prime destroy DC offices and kill Dan Didio, or something?

[BohemiaDrinker]

Didn't Prime destroy DC offices and kill Dan Didio, or something?

Destroyed DC offices, Didio remained living. Knowing Didio's public persona, it's not something he'd share with the public.

It's perfectly possible that their offices were left in such a bad shape that they decided to move to Burbank instead of fixing it.

[Buried Alien]

Didn't Prime destroy DC offices and kill Dan Didio, or something?

Didio was depicted fleeing for his life down an office corridor, but the comic never verified if he survived Superboy Prime's rampage or not.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Doctor Cosmic]

If I had my druthers, the Superboy Prime concept would be restored. This would a way of having the classic Superman with a new, modern twist: Superman is not only a character but also, a real person. Get Busiek on the book and it would be great. Have the Earth-33 Superboy eventually inspire new, youthful heroes, though none with powers and not necessarily as we know them. Does Superboy Prime inspire a wave of real-life superheroes in the way the fictional Superman inspired a new age of heroes while also, within Prime's world, inspired the comics medium?

This would be a way to have a character named Superboy or Superman not be angsty, angry, or wear armor. Maybe he'd actually do that thing people do with their mouths when they're happy? Crap, can't remember that's called...oh, yeah! SMILE.

[Black Angel]

Well, it's as simple as "not all Earths were rebooted by Flashpoint".

Because they weren't, really; and since Prime was always an anomaly from Pre-Crisis (even if folded into Earth-33 by the post-Infinite Crisis Multiverse) it's not really that big of a deal.

It's also fair to notice that, sincee the OP seems to be confused about "Earth 33 having only one Super-Hero" that as far as I can remember, Suérboy Prime was never a Super-Hero in Earth Prime. He gets his powers, goes straight to COIE, than hgoes to the Cristal City, stays there until Infinite Crisis, becomes a villain, the happens Countdown/Final Crisis, etc.

He only returns to Earth 33 during Legion of 3 Worlds, powerless (If I'm not mistaken). In Blackest Night he regains his powers for a very limited period of time, is not a super-hero by any stretch, and it's strongly implied that he dies at the end. (He would later appears in Teen Titans, but that's Earth-0 again).

So, basically, even if there's a Prime in our Earth right now, we just never became aware of him.

True this i mean earth 22 is still the same so KC still happened the same way. Honestly i just hope that last showing of him was erased i hope he is not on the source wall.

[LoneNecromancer]

Didio was depicted fleeing for his life down an office corridor, but the comic never verified if he survived Superboy Prime's rampage or not.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

He obviously survived.

Everyone knows Didio can only be slain at the light of the full moon when the planets have aligned with a blade of purest silver.