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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheObsessor View Post
    Allstar Batman and Robin takes place in the early days of the Dark Knight Returns universe.
    i still don't get it. what happened in allstar batman and robin that i should be concerned about? i've never read it and probably never will.

  2. #32
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    The idea was okay however the execution was terrible. I despise the very concept of Spidey making a deal with a faux devil, it goes against his character. If they wanted to undo the marriage fine just use a better vehicle to do so.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    The idea was okay however the execution was terrible. I despise the very concept of Spidey making a deal with a faux devil, it goes against his character. If they wanted to undo the marriage fine just use a better vehicle to do so.

    the idea reminds me a bit of Kurt Busiek’s Astro City #1/2 “The Nearness of You”

    "This brilliant one-off issue by Busiek and Anderson show how the real-life effects of superhero epic battles, as a man’s wife disappears from existence due to a battle in the past (where her grandfather is killed). A spectral hero gives him the option of remembering a woman he will never see again or having the memories taken from him for good. A touching, beautiful tale."

  4. #34
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    I've seen the suggestion (don't know if it's really based on anything in the story really, but it could fit even if it isn't) that Mephisto was afraid of Peter and MJ's daughter for some reason (prophecy nonsense, I don't know). So, the idea that Mephisto is able to do some horrible thing in the future that he couldn't have done with Not-Mayday around could be written in as a consequence. There really does need to be a consequence. It really is kind of disgusting on a basic moral level that a mainstream superhero comic has their virtuous flagship character cut a deal with the Devil.....
    Exactly, which is my main problem with the entire setup. Spider-Man is suppose to be a moral example to people everywhere. A hero who always strives to do the right thing no matter how hard it may be. He should never under any circumstances take the easy, and in this case immoral, way out. He knows the type of creature Mephisto is helping that slime in any way, shape or form no matter the degree of temptation should be an automatic no no.

  5. #35
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aruran. View Post
    No because in the 50+ years of Spider-Man, Marvel thought it was ok to write a story where Peter's girlfriend cheated on him with one of his greatest enemies, got knocked up, decided not to tell him and kept the babies a secret.....
    That story was also horrible on multiple levels. If not for the concept behind OMD, a deal with the Marvel 616 Devil stand in, it'd be my top worse Spidey story of all time. As things currently stand Sins Past is a close second on my despicable tales list.

  6. #36
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Up there with Hank Pym hitting his wife, Peter Parker hitting his wife, Dr. Light raping Sue Dibny, and Kyle Rayner finding his girlfriend in a fridge. More of a black mark on the company that allowed it, in my opinion, than the character....
    I couldn't possibly agree with you more, on both your overall point and supporting examples.

  7. #37
    Amazing Member mlazic's Avatar
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    To the fans who were really upset by the story sure it'll always sting. To fans who weren't that bothered or fans who came in afterwards I don't see it really being that big an issue in the years ahead.

  8. #38
    Brought to you by CarlsJr SickAlice's Avatar
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    Confused on the context of the question as others are so I'll go both ways.

    In-universe: Only as much as the writers want it to. If they aren't making a point of something in the present story it isn't relevant then, not even in a looming sense of the word. This is also a special case scenario where the character isn't aware of what actually happened and believes a different canon to be true instead, so he can't actually define himself on it as he can with other past experiences like Gwen or being bonded to the symbiote for example.

    In fandom:
    " I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. " - Maya Angelou
    Quotes are nice for driving a point home but examples and facts are of course the backbone of any point, that happens to be pretty easy to do though.

    1- Here we are. That's simple enough. This thread right here. And then take a look about this forum. Just the first page of it even. People remember and lots are still insulted. People who were reading at that time even a negative attitude towards what was done. Pose the question: What's the worst retcon in Spider-man history and what's the result? Post the question: What are the top five worst retcons in Marvel history and whats in the results? Post a question: What are the top five worst retcons in comic book publishing history and what will you find in the results? Do fans remember and many disfavor it to date? I think so.

    2 - From the publishing angle, again Chapter One. Even the writers immediately dismissed this clear mistake in a few of those retcons where less significant then OMD. So what boggled my mind when OMD came about was looking back at C1 and how that went down for Spider-man and why they would go ahead and repeat the mistake again and somehow expect a positive reception from the fandom? Will readers move on? Sure as the story does they'll move with it. The more distance that was made between now and that moment (or lack of one?) the more people started coming around again. To be frank and something I wish some of the more resilient creators, or just creator would understand or at least just concede to is the thing that really irked fans wasn't as much that " things changed " it's that they were giving the finger by this gesture and told not only did anything they know matter, more what they felt didn't matter and apparently, not even to their own selves despite what they thought they know? Which of course brings us back to the above quote.
    I make love, you make me sick.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aruran. View Post
    No because in the 50+ years of Spider-Man, Marvel thought it was ok to write a story where Peter's girlfriend cheated on him with one of his greatest enemies, got knocked up, decided not to tell him and kept the babies a secret.
    I happen to disagree with this for several reasons if we take the approved by marvel approach Gwen didn’t cheat so that’s seems off the table she was upset with Peter because of what happened between him and her father so that could explain her feelings, teenage pregnancies happen all the time it isn’t that uncommon, being afraid to talk to someone about something isn’t that strange either. Does sins past issue have problems maybe is it a great story no but it seems with all these stories it’s the execution. I think this is most of the fans problems with Sins Past, Gwen slept with Norman not that she kept it from peter , not that she had babies it comes down to she slept with the green goblin heres the counter at that time in spidey’s history how many freaking people knew that norman was the green goblin, let me think two Peter and Norman, Norman wouldn’t tell Gwen if he wanted to use her against spider-man and Peter didn’t know so exactly how is gwen meant to know that Norman one of her fathers friends is secretly a manic.
    Truth is the best policy

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    the idea reminds me a bit of Kurt Busiek’s Astro City #1/2 “The Nearness of You”

    "This brilliant one-off issue by Busiek and Anderson show how the real-life effects of superhero epic battles, as a man’s wife disappears from existence due to a battle in the past (where her grandfather is killed). A spectral hero gives him the option of remembering a woman he will never see again or having the memories taken from him for good. A touching, beautiful tale."
    When you say something like that I'm scared of the outcome of that tale.

  11. #41
    Mighty Member oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    I think to about half of Spider-Man fans it will, and half it won't.

    For fans who liked the marriage and thought it enhanced the character.... yes, I think it's a shame.

    For fans who can't get over the devil deal aspect... yes it's a shame.

    For fans who wanted a single Peter again and don't care how he got there, it's good.

    For fans who wanted a single Peter, but not in that way... eh, take it or leave it.

    For fans who don't care either way. Take it or leave it.
    Pretty much this.

  12. #42
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    OMD is a huge terrible black mark on Spidey comics, in-story and out. Out of story it is, like the Clone Saga, proof of what bad editorial direction is capable of. Sins Past and Chapter One are other great examples.

    In-story it's a superhero making a deal with the devil and not winning as a superhero should.

    I think Peter & MJ should be together (most of the time) and unmarried (forever in current time comics), but the devil deal part was the worst means to this sorta end. Still amazing it was chosen.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 02-23-2015 at 08:42 AM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SickAlice View Post
    Confused on the context of the question as others are so I'll go both ways.

    In-universe: Only as much as the writers want it to. If they aren't making a point of something in the present story it isn't relevant then, not even in a looming sense of the word. This is also a special case scenario where the character isn't aware of what actually happened and believes a different canon to be true instead, so he can't actually define himself on it as he can with other past experiences like Gwen or being bonded to the symbiote for example.

    In fandom:
    " I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. " - Maya Angelou
    Quotes are nice for driving a point home but examples and facts are of course the backbone of any point, that happens to be pretty easy to do though.

    1- Here we are. That's simple enough. This thread right here. And then take a look about this forum. Just the first page of it even. People remember and lots are still insulted. People who were reading at that time even a negative attitude towards what was done. Pose the question: What's the worst retcon in Spider-man history and what's the result? Post the question: What are the top five worst retcons in Marvel history and whats in the results? Post a question: What are the top five worst retcons in comic book publishing history and what will you find in the results? Do fans remember and many disfavor it to date? I think so.

    2 - From the publishing angle, again Chapter One. Even the writers immediately dismissed this clear mistake in a few of those retcons where less significant then OMD. So what boggled my mind when OMD came about was looking back at C1 and how that went down for Spider-man and why they would go ahead and repeat the mistake again and somehow expect a positive reception from the fandom? Will readers move on? Sure as the story does they'll move with it. The more distance that was made between now and that moment (or lack of one?) the more people started coming around again. To be frank and something I wish some of the more resilient creators, or just creator would understand or at least just concede to is the thing that really irked fans wasn't as much that " things changed " it's that they were giving the finger by this gesture and told not only did anything they know matter, more what they felt didn't matter and apparently, not even to their own selves despite what they thought they know? Which of course brings us back to the above quote.
    Was going to make a similar post but I think SickAlice says what I wanted to say but better.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    I happen to disagree with this for several reasons if we take the approved by marvel approach Gwen didn’t cheat so that’s seems off the table she was upset with Peter because of what happened between him and her father so that could explain her feelings,
    What? You mean when Peter hit him when he was brainwashed? Where does Sins Past peg that down as the time? The story seemed intentionally vague about the why and when. And anyway, that was like a three day break-up, half of which Gwen was a prisoner of the kingpin. So, she yelled at Peter, left her cane-wobbling father who had just been hit by a young man to hop Metro North all the way to Westchester to . . . what!?!? Yeah, I know, it's a retcon. They're all kind of like that, but again I don't remember these details being in the story.

    I think this is most of the fans problems with Sins Past, Gwen slept with Norman not that she kept it from peter
    No doubt. It's straight up skin-crawling creepiness. And it is a hard sell to tell readers that Peter and Gwen never slept together over the course of their year-long (or however long it is) relationship that was so involved they were talking marriage . . . but she has sympathy sex with one of her best friend's fathers. It may be possible, but it's not plausible.

    But even if that were not the case it re-frames Gwen's death so as to completely change its meaning. It's one thing to retcon new information into Gwen's story, but anything that alters ASM #121 should be off the table. Editorial's job is to not approve stories like that.
    Last edited by Tuck; 02-23-2015 at 08:26 AM.

  15. #45
    Mild-Mannered Reporter BlitheringToot's Avatar
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    "Sins Past" was icky. EXTREMELY icky. But it still didn't upset me as much as "One More Day." I read "Sins Past." I was disturbed by "Sins Past." And I kept reading anyway, because even though it threw Gwen under a bus ... to put it bluntly, Gwen was already dead. Peter Parker could keep moving forward and no one need ever think back on "Sins Past" again.

    "One More Day" I couldn't handle, though. That one took Peter Parker himself--the star of the comic--and assassinated his character in such a way that I could not forgive him. And "One More Day" in and of itself wasn't even the worst offender. The worst part was "Brand New Day," which threw his new swingin' singularity back in my face, gleefully celebrating the demise of his prior status quo. Look, kids! Pete's single and ready to mingle! And the best part is he was never married to begin with, so nobody can cry foul about him getting back on the horse so soon after a messy divorce.

    Nope, single Pete was the nail in the coffin for me. I gave up on Peter Parker altogether. I came back for "Superior Spider-Man" and loved it, but as soon as "Amazing" relaunched I was out again. And now that "Spider-Man 2099" is becoming something else ... I might be done with the Spidey world altogether. It's a shame, because Spider-Man was my absolute favorite as a kid, but now all I've got are my longboxes of back issues.
    "What would you prefer? Yellow spandex?" – Scott Summers, 2000

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