New Avengers 30 *spoilers*

[DrTraveler]

Why do you keep mentioning Franklin? He was shown already trying to stop the Incursions but couldn't and now you are trying to say he is behind the whole thing?

We saw young Franklin fail, but older Franklin clearly has a plan. The Original Sin arc all but spells out that Future Franklin was behind the rogue planet and is working hard on a solution. I strongly suspect he plays into the finale of Secret War.

[Moose100]

There's more to this story. Why would the Ivory Kings be destroying the multiverse now?

I am wondering if this finally explains the mad celestials from the FF run.

They are trying to subvert the GD. Battleworld isn't the same as destroying all that exists. They need the abstracts out the way to build this nexus.

[Rosebunse]

The only clue we have is when The Rider accounts for their two previous incursions in New Avengers v3 #16:

New Avengers v3 #16:
THE RIDER: We've found a way each time. Push the world back through. Move a planet through time - fracturing and then resealing the breach... we are only limited by ourselves.

So the Illuminati saw the 2nd one (what they described as moving the planet out of phase with the wishing box) and the 3rd one (the time Norn destroys the dead Earth with Words of Power). The mystery is the first incursion where they pushed the incursion back without using their Infinity Gems. Perhaps they sacrificed their Manifold to do that?

Is it a coincidence that Black Vortex Beast looks a little like a Beyonder?

Black Vortex Beast does look a little too much like a Beyonder...I mean, if the story has been planned this far in advance, I can see the initial sketches of the Beyonders being shown around and Bendis or an artist seeing them and liking them.

But it does seem like it would make the Great Society too perfect if they didn't do something bad to stave off the Incursions.

I applaud Marvel for killing off terrible ideas like the Celestials and other abstracts and the Captain Britain corps bureaucracy such as Saturnyne. The Beyonders are heroes to me in this issue. To paraphrase I believe some Western, no one got killed who didn't deserve killing.

The last scene of the Captain Britain corps reminds me of Hickman's Ultimates depiction of Asgard being destroyed by Ultimate Reed's Children. Here the last Captain Britain serves as both Ultimate Thor and Ultimate Modi combined, Ultimate Modi being given Mjolnir and pushed into the World Tree.

I loved the Celestrials! Who are we supposed to blame plot holes on now? My world is in shambles...

Say what you will, but there's something so tragic and depressing about beings that for decades have been among the most powerful beings in comics just getting destroyed. Is this jobbing? Are the Celestrials beings jobbed?

[Moose100]

There was one incursion of the three that the Great Society survived but didnt disclose how. (NA#19 pg.10-11 digital)
some possibly conflicting information:
-the Great society faced two mapmaker incursions
-they must have faced the Black Priests at least once, since the Norn has learned their Words of Power and has a helmet of theirs
-based on NA#16, the Norn used the Words of Power at least once before their 3rd incursion.

My guess is the following:

1st incursion: probably red incursion with Black Priests, used "Wishing Box", Norn acquires Black Priest helmet and learns Words of Power
2nd incursion: possibly mapmaker world (the one in NA#16 was "second mapped world in two weeks"): Words of Power used. this is the most likely incursion where they faced an ivory king. Something else must have happened that allowed them to survive the incursion, because it wasn't the Words of Power that did ("we don't talk about that")
3rd incursion (depicted in NA#16): mapmaker world, destroyed by Words of Power

THis norn thing. Are you referring to the Loki comic by Ewing?

[Rosebunse]

THis norn thing. Are you referring to the Loki comic by Ewing?

No, he was in the JLA ripoff the Great Society. He was like a Dr. Fate ripoff. Now, I mean "ripoff" in the kindest sense of the word.

[Moose100]

No, he was in the JLA ripoff the Great Society. He was like a Dr. Fate ripoff. Now, I mean "ripoff" in the kindest sense of the word.

Oh yeah! LOL totally forgot. I was thinking of earlier spec about the Ultimates Modi scene and that Loki Issue where he stole the Galactus Seed(is it that or ANOTHER seed?)

[UltimateTy]

Is the artist of this issue doing the remaining issues?

[XPac]

Finally read the issue. Wow. The scale of the problem is just so insanely massive at this point. I not sure it can be topped, and frankly I'm not certain anyone should even try. It would feel almost ridiculous for the heroes to somehow resolve this in the end at this point.

[UltimateTy]

Finally read the issue. Wow. The scale of the problem is just so insanely massive at this point. I not sure it can be topped, and frankly I'm not certain anyone should even try. It would feel almost ridiculous for the heroes to somehow resolve this in the end at this point.

Its gonna be hard for Hickman to end this without it being some deus ex machina trick. He has written himself into a corner.

He's a talented writer so I hope it doesn't end that way.

[Rosebunse]

Hickman himself did say that they fail in the end. They do fail. The only chance they have is to "win" Battleworld, which means they have to fail first for that to even happen.

[rukkis]

Didn't Iron Man and the watcher had already found The Living Tribunal unconscious? The pose/zone where Hanks sees him seems the same

I'm not sure if this was supposed to happen before they found the LT on the moon and it took that long for Hank to get back, or if time is all screwy because of the death of the abstracts and that caused the LT's corpse to appear "before" he died.

Its gonna be hard for Hickman to end this without it being some deus ex machina trick. He has written himself into a corner.

He's a talented writer so I hope it doesn't end that way.

The only way that the heroes can possibly have an impact at this point is for the Great Destroyer to be another ridiculous level powerhouse and for him and the Beyonders to take each other out while the heroes pick up the pieces.

[XPac]

Hickman himself did say that they fail in the end. They do fail. The only chance they have is to "win" Battleworld, which means they have to fail first for that to even happen.

They fail at the end of Time Runs Out, but I think it's almost certain that the heroes in prevail at the actual end of Hickmans story. I don't think the story will just end with them winning a contest. They're going to have to defeat whoever is actually the big bad in the story, whether it's the Destroyer or the Kings or whatever.

[Moose100]

Hickman himself did say that they fail in the end. They do fail. The only chance they have is to "win" Battleworld, which means they have to fail first for that to even happen.

Thats what im thinking too. That they even survive is the works of the Ivory Kings and the construction of Battleworld. But somehow they need to beat back the GD.

[Moose100]

Is the artist of this issue doing the remaining issues?

Hope not..

[Shai-Hulud]

I applaud Marvel for killing off terrible ideas like the Celestials....

Pretty sure that Jack Kirby intended for the Eternals, Deviants and Celestials to be in their own universe rather than the shared Marvel Universe.

But yeah, sometimes Marvel can get pretty crowded on the cosmic deity front.