New Avengers 30 *spoilers*

[Guest_1001]

I didn't like this issue and my interest in the book is waning. By the end of it, I was thinking, "they kill stuff. We get it". And it's been like that more than once.

More than that, it bothered me that Captain Britain was on the cover but seemed like an afterthought in the story itself.

[itspopularnowitsucks]

Despite Hickman doing great stuff here, long-term I suspect that all the cosmic beings Beyonder killed will not return post-Secret Wars because they won't be in the movies.

Except Celestials (Eson the Searcher) appear on screen in Guardians of the Galaxy using the Orb to kill a world, and a species who look awful like the Watchers try to wield the power of the Infinity stones/gems and withered away. And Infinity, Eternity, Death and Oblivion (changed to Entropy) appeared in the stone tablets in the temple, and are hinted to be the creators of Infinity stones/gems.

[Nyadnar17]

*The heroes are gawking, watching the Celestials, Lord Chaos, Master Order, Infinity, Eternity, the Living Tribunal...etc., getting slaughtered. Enters Cyclops...*
Cyclops: Everybody, listen! I have a Phoenix Egg! I'm going to fix everything using its power!
Reed Richards: .........................Go home, Cyclops.
Cyclops: I'm being serious! I have a Phoenix Egg! It's like, more powerful that almost anything! As powerful as a Celestial! Almost as powerful as Galactus!.
Sunspot: Dr. McCoy, could you explain him...?
Beast: Sorry, I'm too busy soiling myself out of fear and crying my eyes out at the same time.



That was THE Beyonder, the Cosmic Cube/child unit that was the protagonist of the first Secret Wars, who is several orders of magnitude less powerful than the Beyonders species.

I thought Pym explicitly stated that THE Beyonder was a child member of the Beyonder species? If so than yeah the kids are less powerful, but it Doom had help maybe they could do something similar to a single Beyonder.

[markallenchi]

Are we all going to forget that REEDS have taken out a BEYONDER with Sol's Anvil? And this was by Hickman himself, so it is canon. My guess is that the multiversal collapse had severely weakened LT and hence Beyonders had the upper hand.

You bring up a great point. I forgot the Reed's killed a Beyonder with Sols Hammer. So the power of the sun can kill a Beyonder? The map makers also freaked out when fighting the Great Society and called the Sun God "post-universal", "aleart the host". I wonder if the sun-gods (which would include Hyperion) have some special role to play in this?

This also makes me think Reed and the Counsel have something to do with all of this starting. The destruction of the Earth, Building the Bridge, etc. Who knows what problems they created playing God.

[Dopliss]

I know that i really shouldn't bring the whole "reboot" talk into this, but am i the only one that feels that if Marvel does reboot, it'll be because of Doom and Molecule Man's machine (Did they call it an Ark? I don't remember, i'll go re-read the books later)? I feel it will somehow explode and for some reason it turns out the machine has enough power to trigger a new Big Bang.
And yes, i do know this sounds really stupid.

[davew128]

I have not evidence. I'm speculating. The last time I saw something defeate all of the cosmic beings, it was Thanos with the Infinity Gaulent. It seems like the gems (or their equivelant) have been destroyed in all reality so maybe that has something to do with it.

Thanos did it again in Marvel: The End when he absorbed the Heart of the Universe, which basically made him the TOAA.

[davew128]

Didn't someone say Molecule can't even beat The Sentry?

We can pretend that didn't happen. We SHOULD pretend that didn't happen.

[davew128]

Can anyone remind me of what happened to the two (correct?) alternate Reed Richards who ended up on 616-Earth during Hickman's FF run?

Ronan literally merged them as genetic material to restart the Supreme Intelligence. Not one of Ronan's smarter ideas as he learned. Whether they are dead or not remains to be seen.

[Nyadnar17]

Ronan literally merged them as genetic material to restart the Supreme Intelligence. Not one of Ronan's smarter ideas as he learned. Whether they are dead or not remains to be seen.

Really? What happened that was bad after that?

You bring up a great point. I forgot the Reed's killed a Beyonder with Sols Hammer. So the power of the sun can kill a Beyonder? The map makers also freaked out when fighting the Great Society and called the Sun God "post-universal", "aleart the host". I wonder if the sun-gods (which would include Hyperion) have some special role to play in this?

This also makes me think Reed and the Counsel have something to do with all of this starting. The destruction of the Earth, Building the Bridge, etc. Who knows what problems they created playing God.

Good points about "post-universal" and the sun-gods. I am not sure they killed the Beyonder though. They said they "crushed" one. At the time read that as killed, but now I am starting to wonder if that word choice was intentional or not.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

Really? What happened that was bad after that?



Good points about "post-universal" and the sun-gods. I am not sure they killed the Beyonder though. They said they "crushed" one. At the time read that as killed, but now I am starting to wonder if that word choice was intentional or not.

The Supreme Intelligence decided to burn the Earth clean in order to kill Black Bolt and the Inhumans. One of whom was his wife at the time. It wasn't part of Ronan's plan.

[davew128]

Really? What happened that was bad after that?

You mean besides the SI immediately declaring war on Earth? If not for Galactus being summoned and the Mad Celestials arriving, the planet would have been toast. Even an Annihilation Wave and Attilan jumping in wasn't stopping that Kree armada.

[vitruvian]

I think so, yes. This is one of the big changes I predicted a while back. Nice to find some of it vindicated even before we get to "Secret Wars."

Can't wait to see what happens next.

Glad to see someone jumped in early in the thread to keep things from getting misunderstood.


I found this to be one of the most exciting issues -- if not the most exciting issue -- since the defeat of the Great Society and the terrible dilemma that followed.

We can also see the heroes realizing in this issue just how screwed this makes them. From Hank Pym especially, but there's definitely a collective despair in the room.

The Beyonders aren't new characters, by the way. They pre-date the Beyonder from the original "Secret Wars," and he is one of them. They were first introduced in "Marvel Two-In-One #63" back in 1980. As mysterious cosmic beings who have been in publication for a long time and whose upper limits had never been established, pulling them in for this purpose couldn't possibly be less of an asspull -- they were easily the best choice for this role.


"Barely any plot advancement"? Really?

We saw the elimination of the Captain Britain Corps as well as all versions of the Celestials, Eternity, Infinity, Lord Chaos, Master Order and the In-Betweener from across the multiverse, got confirmation of the Living Tribunal's death (as well as why he's dead), got an explanation of the Mapmakers' purpose, and got an explanation for why the number of universes remaining in the multiverse suddenly dropped so drastically.

This was a huge issue for plot advancement.

Also, I want to reiterate that the Beyonders aren't Hickman's pet creations. They've been around for 35 years -- which, I'll grant you, isn't as long as the Living Tribunal (introduced in "Strange Tales" #157 in 1967), but is still plenty long ago.

Certainly long enough that Hickman didn't create them anyway. =P

As long as the protagonists are sitting in a fairly intact universe, we didn't see the elimination of all versions of Eternity in this issue... not yet. Eternity is the universe, so if the 616 Eternity were gone, it would have to be after the last Incursion coming up.

[vitruvian]

"They're probably 5th dimensional, with some of them having names like Mzyptlk..."

I think you have that completely backwards

I'm not one of them myself, so that does no good... ;-)

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Question for those who have read SHIELD. Do you think this event is what Issac Newton's math formula predicted? Or was that eventually shown to be something else?

The solution to the equation (The Quiet Math) claims that the "world ends" in 2060. It may or may not be a coincidence that 2060 is the first stop the Time Gem takes Rogers to in Infinite Avengers (betrayal+48 years).

In SHIELD v2 #4 the Human Machine chase Newton to 2060, except they arrive in three different timelines simultaneously (The Broken Loop, The Feedback Loop, The Closed Loop). My interpretation is that by 2060 The multiverse has already collapsed into one timeline, but it's stuck in a binary (or trinary) time loop driven by the war between Worldcore and Planet Ultron (and the Kangs that Rogers meet in broken atemporal space imply that Rogers has arrived there many many times with no solution). The 2060 that the Avengers arrived in appears to be the Feedback Loop, which Nostradamus also named Tomorrow's Tomorrow. This may refer to a future where humans have merged with AI (the Singularity Event).

As for the two other timelines, The Closed Loop (The End of the World) appears to be the surface of the Rogue Planet, not Earth, while The Broken Loop (The Rebirth, The Eternal Promise) could be a world that's been recreated by the Phoenix Force.

[Biclopcicle]

This is my fear.

How exactly will this problem be stopped.

The Beyonders are operating at a level close to the The-One-Above-All. How do you stop something like this?

It's not going to be stopped. Either the beyonders (more likely) or rabum Alal (less likely) will make battle world from the remnants of destroyed universe and the final incursion of 616/1610. No dues ex machina needed