New Avengers 30 *spoilers*

[Dboi654]

Okay so I'm a bit confused in this issue

what did pym see that actually made him go mad?

I might have to read this issue again

[ShaokhaN]

No, That was never stated. Thats your pure conjecture.

It's not his pure conjecture at all. We've seen the 616 race of Watchers in countless comics over the years.

[DrTraveler]

To sum up this issue in a nutshell: Exposition the Comic!

Hope you like dry, never ending, and boring exposition that sounds stilted and inhuman, because that's all this issue is. No characterization, barely any plot advancement, killing tons of characters to make creator's own pets more threatening, and average artwork. What a comic for the ages. Dear god, Hickman, you can write so much better stuff. I've seen East of West! What's with this comic?!

This was written like a cosmic horror story. This was actually more action packed than most Lovecraft stories are.

As I was reading this I was contrasting this with Infinity Gauntlet issue 4 IIRC. It wasn't a favorable comparison. Infinity Gauntlet had the same kind of cosmic conflict with the epic battle to stop Thanos by the Abstracts and it was told very very well. I think this issue just tries to tell too much. We could have seen Pym traveling the multiverse as a plot to the issues we've seen so far which would have left room to tell those final battles in a better way.

I will say this: I don't mind an exposition heavy story here or there in a large serialized story. Battlestar Galactica had a few and it turned out ok. Typically every tv show heading into the finale has an exposition heavy episode right near the end. Nearly every comic that makes the all time best lists has an exposition heavy issue heading into the final arcs. That happens. The problem here is that this didn't need to be so exposition heavy. All of what happened was condensed to exposition to save a few key dramatic reveals.

[vitruvian]

No, That was never stated. Thats your pure conjecture.

Yes, it has been stated, and shown, in numerous stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher...tional_history

http://marvel.wikia.com/Watchers

http://marvel.com/universe/Watchers

Characters such as Uatu's wife, Ulana, or Aron the Rogue Watcher, are from the same race of Watchers from the same 616 universe as Uatu, not visitors from some alternate universe, and different things can happen to and with them in different What If? universes.

[Biclopcicle]

Okay so I'm a bit confused in this issue

what did pym see that actually made him go mad?

I might have to read this issue again

Yeah so it looks like he lost it when he saw the Cosmic beings being wiped out

Also, I'm glad they un-retconned the retcon of the 1984 Beyonder being a mutant inhuman

Finally, the Watchers are an ancient race of beings wherein many exist(Ed) in our universe alone. This is well established. Especially in FF comics in years past

[PlanetaryDevastation]

This was written like a cosmic horror story. This was actually more action packed than most Lovecraft stories are.

As I was reading this I was contrasting this with Infinity Gauntlet issue 4 IIRC. It wasn't a favorable comparison. Infinity Gauntlet had the same kind of cosmic conflict with the epic battle to stop Thanos by the Abstracts and it was told very very well. I think this issue just tries to tell too much. We could have seen Pym traveling the multiverse as a plot to the issues we've seen so far which would have left room to tell those final battles in a better way.

I will say this: I don't mind an exposition heavy story here or there in a large serialized story. Battlestar Galactica had a few and it turned out ok. Typically every tv show heading into the finale has an exposition heavy episode right near the end. Nearly every comic that makes the all time best lists has an exposition heavy issue heading into the final arcs. That happens. The problem here is that this didn't need to be so exposition heavy. All of what happened was condensed to exposition to save a few key dramatic reveals.

This is a Cosmic Horror story. Hickman said it was a horror story. We are only now finding out how big.

[Hariel0079]

Yes, it has been stated, and shown, in numerous stories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher...tional_history

http://marvel.wikia.com/Watchers

http://marvel.com/universe/Watchers

Characters such as Uatu's wife, Ulana, or Aron the Rogue Watcher, are from the same race of Watchers from the same 616 universe as Uatu, not visitors from some alternate universe, and different things can happen to and with them in different What If? universes.

Never said that. Actually READ.

[Hariel0079]

It's not his pure conjecture at all. We've seen the 616 race of Watchers in countless comics over the years.

Some changed, some retcon.

[InformationGeek]

This was written like a cosmic horror story. This was actually more action packed than most Lovecraft stories are.

As I was reading this I was contrasting this with Infinity Gauntlet issue 4 IIRC. It wasn't a favorable comparison. Infinity Gauntlet had the same kind of cosmic conflict with the epic battle to stop Thanos by the Abstracts and it was told very very well. I think this issue just tries to tell too much. We could have seen Pym traveling the multiverse as a plot to the issues we've seen so far which would have left room to tell those final battles in a better way.

I will say this: I don't mind an exposition heavy story here or there in a large serialized story. Battlestar Galactica had a few and it turned out ok. Typically every tv show heading into the finale has an exposition heavy episode right near the end. Nearly every comic that makes the all time best lists has an exposition heavy issue heading into the final arcs. That happens. The problem here is that this didn't need to be so exposition heavy. All of what happened was condensed to exposition to save a few key dramatic reveals.

If only it was actually scary and not so tedious or the action was just so boring (it's montage fighting. Show a quick shot of people fighting and that's all you need!). Like you said, everything should have been condense down. Did we really need a full issue just to show us how super duper dangerous these new Beyonders that came out of nowhere are and how they just worfed every other establish being in the universe with just dry and hollow dialogue? Was there no room for characterization or emotion to show how much this information affects our characters or anything else?

Exposition is not a bad thing, but seriously Hickman went overboard.

[vitruvian]

Never said that. Actually READ.

I did, you didn't. I said there was a whole race of 616 Watchers, you denied it, you were wrong.

[Strangefan]

I swear, if we took out all the comics in this tale devoted to exposition, it would probably only be about 5 issues long. The hardest part is knowing we won't even get resolution in May, it just extends into the Battleworld stuff.

Sigh. Reading this makes me not even want to read the issue, maybe later.

[ShaokhaN]

Some changed, some retcon.

As vitruvian said and showed, the race of Watchers we're familiar with is native to the 616-universe. What are you arguing exactly?

[Double 0]

I agree that I would have liked to see this comic through the direct point of view of Pym and Captain Britain. Watching the horror in their eyes.

Seems like Hickman's rushing to the conclusion instead of really savoring these moments of sheer terror.

[vitruvian]

Some changed, some retcon.

Never retconned. There is a 616 race of Watchers, even if most of them have never interfered as much as Uatu. We even saw Ulana kinda sorta mourning her husband's death in company with Blue Marvel.

[stu]

i did not enjoy the art this issue, outside of a few panels. the beyonders in particular seemed poorly drawn. not that i have much to base this on since we don't really know what they look like. but i didn't really like what i saw.
i was ok with the narration. it was very lovecraftian.