Wonder Woman Romances

[Sacred Knight]

Because this "loss of powers" storyarc is gonna start Clark down the path of being the Superman we all know and love. I'm pretty confident in that actually.

What's "the Superman we all know and love?" If you're talking post-Crisis, which in of itself is NOT the Superman everyone loves, your confidence is misplaced because that's not going to happen. I mean, just losing his powers for a day isn't going to fundamentally change who he is. Judging from his comments, the new writer's point of view is that Superman loves his Kryptonian side just as much as his human part, so he's not going to be playing with the lonesome angle or Superman trying desperately to "be more human" (as is the way Superman should be written).

All that aside, there's not even any indication that any other writer is going to utilize the effects of this new power. They don't have to if they don't want to.

[Vanguard-01]

As far as Bruce goes. I've seen Wonder Woman curb stomp him on many an occasion. One in particular where he bowed down to her after she told him not to get up after beating him to a near pulp. I forget which one it was though.

That's pretty much the only time Diana has beaten Bruce in a non-sparring fight.

It also doesn't count. He wasn't prepped in that fight. He was trying to sneak into Diana's home and abduct the girl Diana was protecting so he could take her back to Gotham.

It also doesn't count because Rucka pretty much nerfed Batman's intelligence by having him think for even one second that he could handle Diana in a fist fight. Any way you slice it, that was a weak showing for Batman.

And as I said with "rogues galleries" that villains crossover as well and that's a very easy thing to fix if your writing is good enough without Wonder Woman being "nerfed".

Sure. You could just say that Joker has been sitting on a "Take control of any being, no matter how powerful" toxin all this time and brought it out just to deal with Batman's new girlfriend.

There is no way to have Joker, Riddler, Two Face, or the Penguin challenge Diana in any meaningful way.

And it sounds like your point or perspective as far as Batman and Wonder Woman goes is that they both are fully capable of going through each other's Rogue's Galleries if Batman has "prep". Wouldn't that nullify the argument that they shouldn't be together because Wonder Woman can go through his rogues gallery if that is the case? Or am I missing your point.

Sure. On paper, Diana being able to trash Bruce's rogues and Bruce being able to trash her rogues (with prep) SHOULD put them on more or less equal footing.

One small problem? Batman is DC's #1 cash cow. They won't LET him, or his rogues, look weak against Diana. That's why they allow stories like "Joker takes control of the entire Justice League with a one-size-fits-all toxin."

If their sales figures were more or less equal, then so would their showings against each other's rogues. But they aren't.

[ed2962]

I don't like the WW/Supes mostly cuz I find it unimaginative, I'm not offended by it.

However, I get how some people find it problematic..."sexist" might be too strong a word. I don't think has to do with Clark as a person, but more with both Supes and WW as icons. Formerly Supes and WW had their own mythologies and she stood toe to toe with her as cultural figure. Making Diana Clark's girlfriend "reduces" her to a supporting character in his story. It's doesn't matter how Clark treats her in the narrative fans will begin to think of her as "Superman's Girlfriend: Wonder Woman" and less a star in her own right. It has more with social conditioning and what not that that's just where some people's minds will go

[Sacred Knight]

Only thing is their time together has proven the overshadowing fear false. I completely understood the fear in the beginning. Not so much now. If anything to this point, one could make the argument that she's overshadowed him, to be honest. I don't go that far since to me its not a competition, but yeah, she's held her own and then some by her side. Its a complete non-issue now.

[chlj1]

For me WW is finally with the man she should have been with all along! The Same goes for SM!! The older fans are still hang up on Steve and Lois, but I'm glad their not with them. For me they still haven't done enough with their relationship! Dc should stop playing games, and truly let them get together! WW and SM should reveal how deeply they love each other! In words and in action, showing each other that they are most important thing in their world's. I think they should move in together!

[Majesty]

That's pretty much the only time Diana has beaten Bruce in a non-sparring fight.

It also doesn't count. He wasn't prepped in that fight. He was trying to sneak into Diana's home and abduct the girl Diana was protecting so he could take her back to Gotham.

It also doesn't count because Rucka pretty much nerfed Batman's intelligence by having him think for even one second that he could handle Diana in a fist fight. Any way you slice it, that was a weak showing for Batman.



Sure. You could just say that Joker has been sitting on a "Take control of any being, no matter how powerful" toxin all this time and brought it out just to deal with Batman's new girlfriend.

There is no way to have Joker, Riddler, Two Face, or the Penguin challenge Diana in any meaningful way.



Sure. On paper, Diana being able to trash Bruce's rogues and Bruce being able to trash her rogues (with prep) SHOULD put them on more or less equal footing.

One small problem? Batman is DC's #1 cash cow. They won't LET him, or his rogues, look weak against Diana. That's why they allow stories like "Joker takes control of the entire Justice League with a one-size-fits-all toxin."

If their sales figures were more or less equal, then so would their showings against each other's rogues. But they aren't.

Just off the top of my head I can recall her also beating him down in Themyscira I think. But I can't place it X_X I remember them having a fight on him not wanting her to go through doing something and she wasn't going to be denied, he tried to stop her, and failed. Miserably and rather easily. I forget when but it was along the lines of Batman: "I'm not gonna let you face that thing alone." and she said "You don't have a choice." I forget where that was X_X help me out there if you know.

Batman has also admitted that Wonder Woman is better than him, not just because she has powers but she's a better fighter than him in hand to hand combat. That says a lot.

He holds her in extremely high regard and knows she could stomp him whenever she so chose.

I'd write more but I must go to work X_X enjoying our conversation

[Mutant God]

I think it would be funny if WW was more "open" and had a different lover every she place she goes, she loves everyone lol.

As for the Batman rogues conversation, I say let some of WW lesser villains go to Gotham/Arkham so they can become grittier and darker, I also think it would be cool to see a comparison and a battle between the Amazons and the League of Assassins, Wonder Woman vs Lady Shiva.

[Sacred Knight]

Wonder Woman is kinda like that in JL3000. Makes no qualms that she has had and continues to have multiple sexual partners, both males and female.

[Vanguard-01]

Just off the top of my head I can recall her also beating him down in Themyscira I think. But I can't place it X_X I remember them having a fight on him not wanting her to go through doing something and she wasn't going to be denied, he tried to stop her, and failed. Miserably and rather easily. I forget when but it was along the lines of Batman: "I'm not gonna let you face that thing alone." and she said "You don't have a choice." I forget where that was X_X help me out there if you know.

Ah! You're thinking of A League of One!

Yeah. Diana beat him there, too. The problem? That story was non-canon. Not only that? Same problem as The Hiketeia: Batman was not prepared to fight Diana. She ambushed him. He had no chance. Almost any powered character can beat Batman when he isn't prepped for the fight.

Batman has also admitted that Wonder Woman is better than him, not just because she has powers but she's a better fighter than him in hand to hand combat. That says a lot.

I'm going to have to see a scan or something, because I've never seen Batman acknowledge Diana as being better than him at anything.

I've seen him acknowledge that Clark is a better person than he is. In MacDuffie's Injustice League story, he acknowledged Diana as "the best melee fighter in the world." Those are the only two occasions where I remember Batman acknowledging anyone as being better than him at anything.

He holds her in extremely high regard and knows she could stomp him whenever she so chose.

Batman holds Superman in high regard. On paper, Superman should be able to stomp him whenever he so chose. Batman stomps Superman all the time.

Until and unless writers start to move away from this "Batgod" obsession, the basic rule is that Batman, with prep time, can crush anyone in the DCU. He just beat Darkseid in single combat and singlehandedly besieged Apokolips.

If the writers want Batman to beat Diana, they'll make it happen. One writer already had him drop Diana with one kick to the gut in one story. Another writer just had Batman stop her with an anti-Lasso that he just pulled out of nowhere. If the writers want Batman to negate all of Diana's powers and beat her like she owes him money? It's going to happen. And since Batman is their top earner? Lots of writers see the benefit of having stories where Batman can kick Wonder Woman's ass.

I'd write more but I must go to work X_X enjoying our conversation

As am I!

[DochaDocha]

Ah! You're thinking of A League of One!

Yeah. Diana beat him there, too. The problem? That story was non-canon. Not only that? Same problem as The Hiketeia: Batman was not prepared to fight Diana. She ambushed him. He had no chance.

I'm going to disagree here. She didn't ambush him here. He figured out what she was up to first, and while she was putting Flash in a lifeboat, she realized that she "underestimated him," and Batman was ready to confront her. When she pulled the lever to launch the lifeboat, Batman says he pulled the circuit. In other words, Batman had an idea what was going on, and when he confronted her, he was likely ready for a physical confrontation. The problem is he can't beat her in any sort of fist fight (Batman Confidential #53 notwithstanding).

Also, I never knew "A League of One" was non-canon, though I can see why someone would say it feels like it's in its own continuity.

Batman holds Superman in high regard. On paper, Superman should be able to stomp him whenever he so chose. Batman stomps Superman all the time.

That's kind of misleading, too. Batman readily admits various times (Snyder and Miller notwithstanding) that Superman would beat him, and Superman beats him plenty of times, and other times it is strongly implied Superman would beat him. See Johns, Loeb, Rucka, Azzarello, and pretty much anything from pre-Crisis.

Anyway, that's sort of off-topic now, so I'll just post this pic and go about my merry little way.

[ed2962]

Who's this art by?

[Blacksun]

darkseid skirt is pretty short lol

[Vanguard-01]

I'm going to disagree here. She didn't ambush him here. He figured out what she was up to first, and while she was putting Flash in a lifeboat, she realized that she "underestimated him," and Batman was ready to confront her. When she pulled the lever to launch the lifeboat, Batman says he pulled the circuit. In other words, Batman had an idea what was going on, and when he confronted her, he was likely ready for a physical confrontation. The problem is he can't beat her in any sort of fist fight (Batman Confidential #53 notwithstanding).

He had an idea that Diana was up to something. He didn't, apparently, have time to grab any of his "drop Wonder Woman in two seconds" gear. He tried to fight her with fists and feet. Once again? Weak showing for Batman. He went into a possible fight with Diana without prepping for her.

Once again: without prep time, Batgod doesn't exist. Without prep time, Diana beating Bruce is nothing remotely impressive.

Also, I never knew "A League of One" was non-canon, though I can see why someone would say it feels like it's in its own continuity.

It was never referenced in any other books and wasn't written by the Justice League writer of that time. If it was supposed to be in-continuity, then nothing was really done to show that.

That's kind of misleading, too. Batman readily admits various times (Snyder and Miller notwithstanding) that Superman would beat him, and Superman beats him plenty of times, and other times it is strongly implied Superman would beat him. See Johns, Loeb, Rucka, Azzarello, and pretty much anything from pre-Crisis.

It has been established time and time again that Batman can drop Superman with one of his plans. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a GOOD plan to get past the editors. In Endgame, Batman put Superman in the hospital with a little Kryptonite-infused spit in his face.

And if editors are willing to let Batman take down Superman in order to keep propping Batman up? They'll be more than willing to let Batman take down Diana as well. Once again? Endgame. Diana goes down in seconds to a plot device that the writer pulled out of nowhere.

[Majesty]

Ah! You're thinking of A League of One!

Yeah. Diana beat him there, too. The problem? That story was non-canon. Not only that? Same problem as The Hiketeia: Batman was not prepared to fight Diana. She ambushed him. He had no chance. Almost any powered character can beat Batman when he isn't prepped for the fight.



I'm going to have to see a scan or something, because I've never seen Batman acknowledge Diana as being better than him at anything.

I've seen him acknowledge that Clark is a better person than he is. In MacDuffie's Injustice League story, he acknowledged Diana as "the best melee fighter in the world." Those are the only two occasions where I remember Batman acknowledging anyone as being better than him at anything.



Batman holds Superman in high regard. On paper, Superman should be able to stomp him whenever he so chose. Batman stomps Superman all the time.

Until and unless writers start to move away from this "Batgod" obsession, the basic rule is that Batman, with prep time, can crush anyone in the DCU. He just beat Darkseid in single combat and singlehandedly besieged Apokolips.

If the writers want Batman to beat Diana, they'll make it happen. One writer already had him drop Diana with one kick to the gut in one story. Another writer just had Batman stop her with an anti-Lasso that he just pulled out of nowhere. If the writers want Batman to negate all of Diana's powers and beat her like she owes him money? It's going to happen. And since Batman is their top earner? Lots of writers see the benefit of having stories where Batman can kick Wonder Woman's ass.



As am I!

There is also the time she was a demon and he tried all the stuff he prepped for, it worked for a moment till she flung him off and told him that "all that wit" wouldn't save him against her when she uses her strength. Or something like that

As I did say before it will always depend on the writer.


To me I think that it can be written very well where both of them can 'handle' each other in a certain scenario. And yes Wonder Woman can ambush him, in situations he didn't prep himself for, but he had to know Wonder Woman would stop him.


The reason why Batman "with prep" can beat anyone is simply because he's the only one of the Justice League without 'superpowers' of note. So he basically has to be the "absolute best human" among them all or have his "superhuman brain" to put things together and prep and strategy. It's a sacrifice that's made otherwise why would they need him? The only other alternative to add 'balance' to the situation would be to give Batman superpowers. But that would move him away from being Batman.

I do agree one kick to the solar plexus shouldn't defeat her (even if it was taught to him by the awesome mentor that taught it to him lol) particularly after he broke his fist on her head not but one frame before. Not without breaking his foot in the process as well. But that as well comes down to 'unbalanced' writing. They give him the advantage of knowing weak points and pressure points due to his background, as I've seen him slow Diana with a pressure attack to her head, but it only stalled her and it took near every member of the League to even attempt to bring her down.

But back to Batman and such

You're the only human without "superpowers" in the Justice League, so why do they need you? They need your fighting ability, your mind, and your strategic skills all of which Batman has in spades and he needs at this point.

I understand people get pissed at "BatGod" but keep in mind even from a writers standpoint unless you give Batman superpowers he needs an angle. His angle is "with preperation he could strategize to beat anyone." But at the same time if anyone got the drop on him they'd deal with him just as they'd deal with any other human, no matter how "good" he is. I'm fine with that.


What I am NOT ok with is when writers have to nerf characters for the sake of another one getting an up.

That is actually one of the problems I had with how people wrote Wonder Woman and her powers. For a while there was near absolutely NO consistency to what she could and couldn't do and what she could and couldn't handle.

I've no problem where "If Batman prepped he could beat said person." just as I have no problem with "if that person is ready, or gets the jump on him he'll be stomped as anyone else" that's his 'humanity' and he doesn't have the advantage or margin of error. He can't randomly walk into a very VERY bad situation without a plan or he'd be killed. That's essentially what makes him Batman.

However he openly admits that Diana is better in hand to hand combat than him, and Clark is a better man than he. But that's also why he needs to prep for either of them.

Also Batman and WW go waaaaaay back if we go in comic book lore and they've flirted with each other for what feels like decades =P so there was always something there.


But when it comes down to a relationship it comes down to how the writers do it.

When it comes to their rogues gallery there's some people in Wonder Woman's gallery that could handle Batman, but Wonder Woman can handle, and some even Wonder Woman needs help with where Batman could help in other ways. Same goes for Wonder Woman with Batman's rogue gallery. I would actually love to see how the villains in Gotham who know that Batman and Wonder Woman are a 'thing' create scenarios as well as crossovers with other villains in the DCU to create such scenarios where both Batman and Wonder Woman are need and the 'curb stomping' doesn't happen till they solve the problem. It's when they get to the 'source' that the curbstomp occurs. But watching them have to solve the problem would be just as entertaining.

It just takes the right writer to make it work. That's why there's many Batman/WW stories that worked in the past and could and can work now.

You just need a writer that doesn't take the 'easy way out' when it comes to writing it.


There was also another time that Diana curb stomped Bruce..although you could say he was 'off guard' here too..for many a reason X_X



This is a time when being in love with what he called the most "perfect woman" in the universe works against you..particularly when in this scenario she doesn't know who you are =P

[Vanguard-01]

There is also the time she was a demon and he tried all the stuff he prepped for, it worked for a moment till she flung him off and told him that "all that wit" wouldn't save him against her when she uses her strength. Or something like that

I have no memory of a story in which Diana was a demon.

The reason why Batman "with prep" can beat anyone is simply because he's the only one of the Justice League without 'superpowers' of note. So he basically has to be the "absolute best human" among them all or have his "superhuman brain" to put things together and prep and strategy. It's a sacrifice that's made otherwise why would they need him? The only other alternative to add 'balance' to the situation would be to give Batman superpowers. But that would move him away from being Batman.

I've never had any problem with Batman being super-skilled and capable of beating more powerful heroes with a good strategy.

The problem is that he, and his skill set, too often steals the show from the other heroes. Too many stories have happened in which Batman is, basically, the only Justice Leaguer who matters. The JL cartoon was especially bad about this.

You're the only human without "superpowers" in the Justice League, so why do they need you? They need your fighting ability, your mind, and your strategic skills all of which Batman has in spades and he needs at this point.

I will say it until the day I die: Batman can be useful and relevant on the League without powers and without becoming the only hero who matters in the book.

Stealth missions? Superman is crap at them. So are most of the other Leaguers. If subtlety is favored, Batman is the man for the job.

Resources? Batman has money and people who can help him build things that are of use to the League. They need a specialty weapon? Batman should totally be able to contribute to the designing and building of it.

Most important of all? Strategy. Batman's role should be more like Captain America's on the Avengers. In the Avengers movie, did Cap personally take down Loki or the Chitauri invasion? No. What he did was develop a working strategy on how best to utilize the rest of the Avengers to achieve victory. He does this in the comics, as well. Rarely does Captain America personally take down the Big Bad. He looks at the Big Bad, weighs what he/she/it/they can do, looks at the resources he has available to him, and determines how best to wield those resources in order to win the battle.

Batman, unfortunately, doesn't tend to follow that model. Very often, he does EVERYTHING in stopping the threat. The other Leaguer's contributions are usually minor, or even when they're major, they only managed to do what they did thanks to him. This makes the rest of the team look completely hopeless without him. Take that away, and Batman is still a vital member of the team, without downplaying the other members.

However he openly admits that Diana is better in hand to hand combat than him, and Clark is a better man than he. But that's also why he needs to prep for either of them.

Clark being a better man than him isn't why Batman needs to prep to beat him.

And Batman never called Diana a better hand to hand combatant than him. He called her the best "melee" fighter in the world. "Melee" means "fighting with a weapon." Diana's a better sword fighter than he is. Which is why he's never tried pulling a sword on her.

Also Batman and WW go waaaaaay back if we go in comic book lore and they've flirted with each other for what feels like decades =P so there was always something there.

Superman and Wonder Woman go back just as far, and they've flirted with each other a LOT more. Seriously, there were moments of Superman and Diana flirting going as far back as the Silver Age. There have been Elseworlds and alternate timelines in which the two of them got married and had children.

I honestly haven't seen anything to suggest Batman and Diana were flirting before the JL cartoon and that one Justice League run where they dated for all of five minutes.

But when it comes down to a relationship it comes down to how the writers do it.

This is true.

If properly handled, a Batman and Wonder Woman relationship could work just fine. The problem is that I have very little faith that the writers can be trusted to not glorify Batman over Diana.

If some writer comes along some day and proves me wrong? Well, that will be one time I'll be happy to be wrong.

When it comes to their rogues gallery there's some people in Wonder Woman's gallery that could handle Batman, but Wonder Woman can handle, and some even Wonder Woman needs help with where Batman could help in other ways. Same goes for Wonder Woman with Batman's rogue gallery. I would actually love to see how the villains in Gotham who know that Batman and Wonder Woman are a 'thing' create scenarios as well as crossovers with other villains in the DCU to create such scenarios where both Batman and Wonder Woman are need and the 'curb stomping' doesn't happen till they solve the problem. It's when they get to the 'source' that the curbstomp occurs. But watching them have to solve the problem would be just as entertaining.

I can't think of a single Bat-rogue who could give Diana anymore than five minutes of trouble. Except possibly Ra's al-Ghul. And even then, he'll have to play the strategy game and use his resources to cause her trouble without engaging her directly. The second he's face-to-face with her, he's done.

The first issue of Sensation Comics, we saw Diana take on Bruce's entire rogues gallery. It was a slaughter. None of them did anything more than slow her down. The power disparity is just too much.

It just takes the right writer to make it work. That's why there's many Batman/WW stories that worked in the past and could and can work now.

There really haven't been that many BM/WW stories throughout history. There certainly haven't been very many such stories in which Diana was even remotely challenged by any of Bruce's rogues without massive PIS/PIW to make it work.

You just need a writer that doesn't take the 'easy way out' when it comes to writing it.

Unfortunately, most writers today DO take the easy way out when it comes to working with Batman. They either nerf whoever he's up against, or they have him pull out a MacGuffin that works perfectly (like the Kryptonite spit on Superman, and the anti-Lasso on Diana in Endgame) and needs no further explanation than "See? Prep time! Batman had a "Drop character X" device in his back pocket." No real explanation needed. No real acknowledgement of the effort that would've had to go into taking down the character in question. Just "Batman's so awesome he can drop you with something he just happened to have on his toolbelt today."

Batman's rogues get the same treatment. Once again, the Joker just mind controlled the entire League with a toxin that goes FAR beyond anything we've ever seen him do. Just the right combination of chemicals, and suddenly he owns an alien, the God of War, a speedster with a crazy-fast metabolism, and an Altantean/human hybrid with another high-powered metabolism.

Yes. If the right writer gets to come along and do a good BM/WW relationship, that would be nice. But other writers wouldn't handle it as well, and sooner or later this writer will leave whatever book he's writing.

I would have the same attitude about the SM/WW relationship, just so we're clear. If I were reading this relationship and I really felt that Diana was being treated unfairly in it? I'd already be calling for the end of that relationship. I like the pairing, but I demand that it be done right. Right now, I'm satisfied that it's being done right, or at least "right enough." If that starts to change? Yeah, I won't want it anymore.

So, if Batman and Diana hook up and it's actually being handled well? Sure. I'll be fine with it, until and unless things start to go south. Right now, my opinion is simply that too many writers are obsessed with glorifying Batman at the expense of other characters.

There was also another time that Diana curb stomped Bruce..although you could say he was 'off guard' here too..for many a reason X_X

As you say, he was off guard. It also wasn't a "curb stomp." One unanswered strike is not a curb stomp.

This story was also non-canon, and it's actually a good example of what I'm talking about as far as Batman and his rogues being made to look far better than other characters. Trinity was a terrible story for Diana. She got her "unbreakable" Lasso snapped like a piece of yarn by Bizarro. Bizzaro then beat her to a bloody pulp. She was then captured and nearly killed, resurrected, and raped by Ra's al-Ghul. She was only rescued from that predicament by? You guessed it! Batman, who took out Bizarro with, basically, a really bright flash light. Diana then goes on to the final battle, where she sword fights with merely human Ra's al-Ghul, gets disarmed by him, and then actually struggles to take him down.

Ra's should not be able to last five seconds against Diana in a sword fight. His skills were exaggerated, and/or Diana's skills and powers were massively downplayed in order to make Ra's look better.