Hulk vs Mordo

[Pendaran]

Apparently the ability to affect physical bodies from the astral plane is incredibly overpowered. The Hulk still did it, right? It happened. I guess it's canon that the Hulk *is* more powerful than Dormamu?

It's not a rhetorical question. Why if the showings are both valid, can the Hulk manage something a vastly more powerful being, ostensibly, can't manage, despite having maimed Strange far worse?

There's an easy answer and it would be "well, that's likely not valid then, given the Hulk being wildly beneath Dormammu". Alternatively you could try and reconcile it by saying "the Hulk is vastly more powerful than a guy Strange giving his entire all at the height of his powers can barely fight." In which case, feats for that?

[Pendaran]

I mean, you want to claim something is super impressive because they did it to Doctor Strange. Why would a response to that not be "Okay, here's some things Doctor Strange has done, can you explain how they reconcile if we take your statements at face value?"

Again, nothing here is a rhetorical thing.

[KPhilipsen]

Yes, it would seem to follow that Dormamu is more powerful and resilient than the Hulk and would be able to survive Strange forcing his way into his mind. Strange could simply have not been constrained by the same moral concerns as performing the same act on a mortal. It could have nothing to do with ability.

How is the Hulk breaking Strange's hands not valid? It's in line with his previous abilities to see ghosts and touch astral projections. Hulk simply managed to leverage surprise and his unique power set to get the drop on Strange. It wasn't the arena. Strange wasn't out for blood. The Hulk has the ability to hurt the sorcerer supreme physically from the psychic realm. That's impressive and unique. It wouldn't save him from a full out assault from Strange though. It's just a powerful aspect of his power set.

Like you said earlier perhaps the shock of the injuries to his physical form, something that would come as a surprise, contributed to causing Doctor Strange to lose concentration and his astral form?

Hulk being able to break Strange's hands by surprise is a seriously badass feat but it doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean that Hulk is more powerful than him or Dormamu. It's just an ability and not even one powerful enough to win the fight.

I don't know why Dormamu can't break Strange's physical bones from the astral plane? Can he fire optic blasts? Does he have adamantium claws? How about the proportional strength of a spider? No? Well why not?

[Pendaran]

It's in line with his previous abilities to see ghosts and touch astral projections.

So, just to be clear, it's not actually a mental resistance or offense feat anymore, it's just that the Hulk can see ghosts and touch astral projections.

The Hulk has the ability to hurt the sorcerer supreme physically from the psychic realm. That's impressive and unique.

The first thing you said makes this nothing but that the Hulk can touch astral projections and makes it have nothing to do with mental resistance, willpower, offense, or anything like that. It just so happens the Hulk can tangibly interact with certain things. It's also a complete reversal of this post.

He was forced out of his mind by a confrontation on the psychic plane. This was not a case of the Hulk interacting with spirits. The Hulk was physically being hit with missiles. Stranges Astral form was nowhere near the Hulk's body. That is a mental feat any which way you slice it.

So, which is it?

Yes, it would seem to follow that Dormamu is more powerful and resilient than the Hulk and would be able to survive Strange forcing his way into his mind. Strange could simply have not been constrained by the same moral concerns as performing the same act on a mortal. It could have nothing to do with ability.

Strange was temporarily depowered at the time with Dormammu. He still fought his way in. Why given all that would he not be able to get into the Hulk's mind without killing him? He wasn't yet depowered officially in WWH as he would once again be for a while afterwards.

[KPhilipsen]

Sure, let's go with that. I'm fine with the feat being "that the Hulk can see ghosts and touch astral projections." with the caveat that he can do it psychically on the psychic plane. The devil is in the details my friend. The Hulk's body was not interacting with Strange's astral form. Only his mind. Previously the Hulk had only demonstrated the ability to touch psychic projections physically not psychically while affecting a physical body. Phew that gets complicated! If we want to call that a powerset ability or a mental resistance take your pick. You choose. I'm accommodating. That it's a feat is enough. A rose by any other name, right? The function is the same.

I'm saying I don't care. I'm not nearly as classification minded as you my fast typing friend. I simply don't care. Powerset or resistance, take your pick.

It's up to you is which it is. Your pick. All the same to me. Ability or resistance. Potato potatto.

Again, it could simply be the case as Strange said in the book; that he would kill the Hulk in the attempt. Dormamu isn't as fragile as a mortal psyche. Seems reasonable.

I'll get back to this thread tomorrow! I'm exhausted. Barely keeping my eyes open. Until later!

[Pendaran]

As we go along, there's kind of a thing I like to say in these times, and particularly given things like that Batgirl thread that boiled down to "well, I just don't like the character", and just.. this entire thread at this point, it seems apt. The one true, real answer to almost the questions in this here thread are "because that's what the writer wanted to happen." There's this great bit in the otherwise.. mm.. uneven Max Landis Death of Superman video where he's recounting when he talked with his father about the rules to killing vampires, and Max starts listing them, and his father is all "wrong! anything you want to kill vampires can kill vampires because vampires aren't real!"

In that sense, there's no such stinking thing as power, speed, strength. No one in comics is X fast, X strong, X resistant, X whatever. They are as X as the writer wants them to be to tell the story they are telling. The real answer to almost every single thread on this forum is "whatever the writer wants to happen." Nothing says anything about a character outside of when that story wanted to say something about that character, it has no implications beyond that level.

Captain America and Spiderman can punch out the Hulk. Captain Cold can hit the Flash. Batman can punch a bullet away. The Punisher can humiliate Spiderman Wolverine and Daredevil all together. The Hulk can eff Doctor Strange right up. Squirrel Girl can kick Thanos' ass. The Sentry stalemated Galactus. Captain Britain can solo hold off the manifested Phoenix Force. Whatever. Spiderman can totally kick that herald of Galactus' ass.

But then you want to say "but character X is so powerful, he did this!" or "yeah, but that other time means this should have happened!" or "ugh, why was this ignored!" or "wow, that was so impressive because this guy is so Y!" or "this character's stock is on the rise!" or "yeah, but that was a low showing", or what all ever thing like that. Well, welcome to Rumbles! One of us! But comics? Comics super completely does not care. You want to talk about "well the Hulk should resist this because of his feats"? You want to talk about canon? Comics does not care. There are no feats. The Thing can beat up Namor underwater, who can beat the Hulk underwater and has beaten the Thing underwater like he owed him money. The Hulk? He can get whooped by some half assed Superman rip off that shows up for a single comic. The moment you start saying different, you have entered the super uncool, nerdy, but really sort of fun in the way niche nerd things can be, world of comic book fighty debates. You're having meaningless nerd debates about things that the people making comics I assure you almost never take into consideration. And you can talk about setting and portrayal integrity and logic making a narrative better, and continuity and consistency, but I see you that and raise you that anything you want can kill vampires.

But if you're here, or some other place that does this kind of thing, well, good for you, it means some part of you wants to do this anyway, despite all that being true. And hell, I want to do this stuff too. Nerd debates are way more fun and ten thousand times less depressing than debates about real world things. But since this is based on nothing, how do you have discussions on it that don't basically devolve into "everything counts because it happened even though that makes everything completely contradictory" or "the character I like wins and the character I don't like loses" for, what, some 50 odd pages that frankly, is not fun.

Well, what you do is the same thing that brought all these stories we have these debates about into being. You play make believe. In this case, you pretend that there can be a logic in comics above "because that's how the writer wrote it", and the mildly unstated social contract is that everyone agrees to pretend there can be a logic too. Then you can have debates where you can try and ask things like "but then how would that reconcile" or "but based on this character's power set, that wouldn't make sense". So, you set that logic up, you have it interface with the idea of being logic, weighing evidence, debate stuff, as best you can, establish ground rules, and off you go. If you say something is impressive, you look at why and what that would have to mean compared to other things, and you pretend like you actually could. And, I have to say, Rumbles, and its rules and such, in its corner of the internet, it's lasted how many years and board migrations and reboots now? Hell, it outlived the original site that spawned it. Place must be doing something right. So, that's the price of doing business to have a corner of nerd debates with some solid moderation to keep things from becoming too toxic viper pit and maintaining that implied pretending to logic that without we're all just seeing who can scream the loudest into the wind, world without end. Even the mod rulings are, at their heart, about keeping that structure in place and with a consistency to it. And it's a pretty cheap price, I think. Not everyone may like that, but that's okay. The internet is /huge/ and there are other places where you can do this kind of thing, some other way, that are playing pretend as much as we are, just differently.

Which is what makes it sad, not related to the posts I've been responding to really, but more a general sad, when people will roll along to the board and post from some need to defend their favourite character in a way that just makes no sense with anything that's right there to read for how stuff works here, or otherwise makes no sense at all with even just consistency with their own posts, or thinly veiled smugly troll, or some internet messianic we must change what we do to save ourselves or something, or largely one off post and tell themselves "ha, I must be causing them such outrage to post in defiance of their conventions and then not engage!" and dude, no, it's all just sad. You've let this place take up living space in your head to the point that you take precious life time for it and for what? The pretendy time nerd debates will keep happening how they do and as they have. Like the rest of us, you are not cool anymore, and that happened the moment you made an account to post here, but that's really okay. Just accept that your favourite character is not actually anything and you can find yourself able to say whatever without it getting to you.

So yeah, that's Rumbles. We pretend you can make logical claims about fictional characters and created a system for doing so that works within itself and the idea of character's powers and actually using them and what they mean, comparative showings, context, all that jazz. Chances are it will mean at some point a character you like gets a thing said about them you don't like. But "how does this, reconcile with this" or "but how does this work in this larger context" and "but this guy's powers are this" comes part and parcel with "this guy is so powerful!" because again, really, no one is actually powerful. On the plus side, nerd debates! About fictional characters! That don't boil down into basically nothing even trying to make sense with anything! That's some good stuff.

If I myself get particularly invested in it, it's because well, again, all the fun of involved discourse, but about nonsense, but it works anyway. But sans a system, it no work.

edit: I suppose it's worth adding, I say mildly unstated social contract, but really, board rules are posted right at the top. It's why it's always so baffling when you get the "I spit on your board rules!" person every so often. Then why post? Why waste everyone's time including your own? Beyond that, yes, I know, I know, writers would never write 99% of the fights or scenarios posted here, you could easily sub in "then the answer is whoever you like more, or whatever you want to happen, with the understanding it has nothing really to do with what characters are capable of, because they're capable of nothing, because they don't exist." The minute you go "well x power, or x showing or x context", there's then "well what about y power, and y showing and y context." Consequences of letting logic sneak into a place where it normally does not live.

[Pendaran]

Sure, let's go with that. I'm fine with the feat being "that the Hulk can see ghosts and touch astral projections." with the caveat that he can do it psychically on the psychic plane. The devil is in the details my friend. The Hulk's body was not interacting with Strange's astral form. Only his mind. Previously the Hulk had only demonstrated the ability to touch psychic projections physically not psychically while affecting a physical body. Phew that gets complicated! If we want to call that a powerset ability or a mental resistance take your pick. You choose. I'm accommodating. That it's a feat is enough. A rose by any other name, right? The function is the same.

If it's not a mental resistance whatever feat, it wouldn't have anything to do with saying the Hulk can resist his mind being controlled.

Again, it could simply be the case as Strange said in the book; that he would kill the Hulk in the attempt. Dormamu isn't as fragile as a mortal psyche. Seems reasonable.

A less powerful Strange doing something to a more powerful being that he couldn't do to the Hulk without killing him would not make any sense if you were to say both things were valid. If anything that should make it even easier for Strange.

[KPhilipsen]

Oh God this is a wall of text. I need coffee.

Pandaran your entire argument about Dormammu is that he is stronger than the Hulk and therefore should be able to do what the Hulk does, regardless of powersets. You're arguing against your own logic: "But then you want to say "but character X is so powerful, he did this!" Then you go on to say how everything is just plot and there are no feats. Okay then? What are we doing on this thread then? Doesn't this board work based on on-panel feats? I'm so confused! Where am I?

The problem Pandaran is that you seem to have set yourself up as the final say on what is a feat or not and are completely wiping away and ignoring the long history of the Hulk's mental resistances. It's not that the Hulk is my favourite character like you've claimed but simply that he repeatedly demonstrates those abilities. Nobody is ignoring the boards rules Pandaran, you're just claiming to be the authority. Can we get a mod ruling on the Hulk's mental resistances?

Oh, there was also that time when the Sorcerer Supreme of the dark dimension took control of the Hulk and he fought him off on the astral plane. The Peter David run where Banner let the Green Hulk out from behind the mental door/block that he had sealed him. It seems that the Hulk has super strength on the psychic plane. If we don't want to credit the Hulk with mental resistance for some reason even though he has super strength on the psychic plane what would you like to call the ability? He's super strong with his mind but it's not a mental feat? Again, I'm okay with your definition but your definition doesn't wipe away the feats themselves. The Hulk manhandles beings that he straight up should not be able to without any mental abilities. All of these encounters take place on the psychic plane. What's going on? (I had to cut some of your quote down because you broke the forum)

Now nowhere have I said that if Sauron is invincible without the "Eru" buff that the Hulk could still win. As I said over and over going from the feats that I was aware of Sauron didn't seem to be that incredible of a telepath. If we want to credit him everything that was written about him even though he didn't actually *do* anything that he was said to be capable of in the book well then okay. Sure. He couldn't dominate a human mind and the plot says something about "Eru" so everybody everywhere is toast. Sauron is god we can all move on. Hell, I've never even claimed that the Hulk could *beat* Dr. Strange. Quite the opposite.

I'm not sure why you're trying to twist my argument into "I want my favourite character to win" or that I'm "spitting on your boards rules". I think this has gotten kind of out of hand at this point honestly. Enjoy your rumbles Pandaran you can have them if this is the level that they are going to degenerate to. I have not cast any aspersions on your character. It's unfortunate you felt the need to do such to me and to try to paint my motivations in such an unflattering light. I am disappointed.

As we go along, there's kind of a thing I like to say in these times, and particularly given things like that Batgirl thread that boiled down to "well, I just don't like the character", and just.. this entire thread at this point, it seems apt. The one true, real answer to almost the questions in this here thread are "because that's what the writer wanted to happen." There's this great bit in the otherwise.. mm.. uneven Max Landis Death of Superman video where he's recounting when he talked with his father about the rules to killing vampires, and Max starts listing them, and his father is all "wrong! anything you want to kill vampires can kill vampires because vampires aren't real!"

[Sharpandpointies]

Oh God this is a wall of text. I need coffee. Pandaran your entire argument about Dormammu is that he is stronger than the Hulk and therefore should be able to do what the Hulk does, regardless of powersets. You're arguing against your own logic: "But then you want to say "but character X is so powerful, he did this!" Then you go on to say how everything is just plot and there are no feats. Okay then? What are we doing on this thread then? Doesn't this board work based on on-panel feats? I'm so confused! Where am I?

That big post above is just Pendaran's general feelings on the whole situation of comics versus actually debating comic book characters fighting.

To clarify one of your comments, the board works by High End feats consistent with the character's presentation.

If we worked with any and all high-end feats, we'd end up with ridiculous stuff like 'Captain America can hurt Thanos with a shield strike, so he should be able to KO Thor.' Or 'Spiderman can beat up Firelord'. Or any number of other things on that level.

[KPhilipsen]

It's not a mental resistance feat yet when the sorcerer supreme from the dark dimension tried to take over his mind and he physically, on the mental plane, picked him up and threw him out isn't a mental feat? Why not? Why do all of these direct examples of the Hulk fighting someone *in his mind* not count as mental abilities?

It didn't say that Strange couldn't do it. It said that Strange couldn't do it *without killing him*. I'm not sure why that doesn't make sense to you. I feel like I've explained it in detail at this point and barring you claiming the authority on the issue I think my interpretation is just as valid as yours especially given the Hulk's history. Again, can we get a mod ruling on the Hulk's mental resistance feats? You're not being reasonable imo.

[KPhilipsen]

Absolutely. I addressed that directly earlier. Are you able to give us a ruling on the Hulk's mental abilities please Sharp? It seems like he has demonstrated the ability on many occasions. See my previous posts. Do you feel that the Hulk's mental resist feats are all SMvFL?

[Sharpandpointies]

I'm actually not a moderator any more, so rulings are a little beyond me.... :)

Dormammu is a guy who not only controls strong-willed people mentally, but takes control of them from other dimensions, and does stuff like level his own power through other people from other dimensions. His capacity for psychic stuff is a wee bit beyond that of people like Xavier (like, lots).

He utterly eclipses Strange when it comes to this kind of thing, and Strange is a guy who can send telepathic messages through different dimensions (like Dormammu, but not on the same level - it's kind of a messaging thing rather than a conversation/control thing).

Regarding the Hulk, I have no idea personally.

[big_adventure]

Well, as far as Hulk goes, he does have some mental resistance feats, as well as, obviously, being treated like a puppet sometimes. He has typically been portrayed as "harder to control than most," relatively specifically thanks to rage and such.

But.

Any scene that has him resisting Xavier or Strange is bogus, given how consistently he has been owned by far, far lesser forces. Does anyone really want to place Abyss next to Xavier in a (purely mental) pissing contest? No, not even Abyss wants that. Can he resist stuff that Leader or Modok do? Sure, why not?

So, to place him against Sauron, one has to decide where Sauron's level lies. It's surely not Xavier or Classic Strange. Then one has to decide how much of Sauron's best stuff involved either a tool or the willing participation of the controlled, and, to the contrary, how much resisting Sauron comes from a blessing that may or may not apply to Hulk and therefore, how to place Hulk's resistance against all of that.

I see it like this, but this is just me:

Sauron's long distance battle for control with Galadriel smacks of Sauron connecting via Ring - Galadriel wears one, after all, and this is explicitly how Sauron took over the Nazgul. Galadriel resists 'cause she's a badass.

Sauron's "control" of his army has a few things: 1. those guys were basically his anyway - they did what they were ordered to do; 2. They clearly want to kill Elves and Men and Dwarves, even without Sauron's influence, so it's not all that hard to make them go to war for him; and 3. Them "falling apart" after Sauron fell might well have a lot to do with the mental touch going away (See original Star Wars EU stories, the only ones I know at all, for what happened when the Jedi's guiding force vanished after one had bonded to his army/fleet/etc.), but also their semi-incarnate god died right behind them in a cataclysm. Pretty demoralizing.

OTOH, Sauron is always presented as someone hard to resist. And there is that tricky "Eru's blessing" thing. Which is, as well-noted, hard to reconcile to everything in the books.

[Siriel]

Sauron's long distance battle for control with Galadriel smacks of Sauron connecting via Ring

Ah, yes, Sauron is well-known for having been wearing the One Ring, his actual mean of controlling people via rings, during Lord of the Rings. I remember well the chapter where Legolas shot arrows to make a ladder up the watchtower for Aragorn, who proceeded to ascend it and wrest the One Ring from the flaming eyeball to toss it to Frodo down below so he could go throw it into the volcano.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Ah, yes, Sauron is well-known for having been wearing the One Ring, his actual mean of controlling people via rings, during Lord of the Rings. I remember well the chapter where Legolas shot arrows to make a ladder up the watchtower for Aragorn, who proceeded to ascend it and wrest the One Ring from the flaming eyeball to toss it to Frodo down below so he could go throw it into the volcano.

I laughed out loud at this one.