Hulk vs Mordo

[MidTierHero]

So Hulk fights his way into Sauron's throne room (fight being an exaggeration), Sauron see him and... mentally commands him to stop? Despite Sauron never being able to do this to an opponent when unaided by outside tools such as a Ring or a palantir? Not once throughout four novels or extended materials? Despite his armies abandoning him when the cause was lost in earlier battles?

[Pendaran]

So Hulk fights his way into Sauron's throne room (fight being an exaggeration), Sauron see him and... mentally commands him to stop? Despite Sauron never being able to do this to an opponent when unaided by outside tools such as a Ring or a palantir? Not once throughout four novels or extended materials? Despite his armies abandoning him when the cause was lost in earlier battles?

If Sauron can hold an entire army in sway to fight for him, which he did, and you accept the showing, yeap, that's basically what happens.

If you don't accept it as valid for having happened, no, that's not what happens.

Showing still happened.

What a fortunate thing we're on a board that weighs validity of showings instead of just "well, if it happened, it happened".

[KPhilipsen]

I'm pulling that issue out. I think I'm remembering it out of order then. I was thinking the adamantium barrage came at the end when Strange failed. I do remember Strange saying he wasn't willing to kill the Hulk because they were responsible for the situation after launching him off world. Killing isn't controlling though. Could Strange have destroyed the Hulk's mind? Sure. He was the Sorcerer Supreme. He didn't seem to be able to take control though and as you said even admitted that the attempt would be fatal. The issue wasn't who would win in a fight. That's Dr. Strange. It's whether he could mind control the Hulk.

[Siriel]

The text provided for you in this thread does not intersect with what you are trying to advance. It refers to them all as spell enslaved. Sauron's control is likened unto a thing that holds them all in sway. Those are the words.

You could argue, say, that the showing is not valid because of what it would mean for the plot, and as several people have advanced, you might have a case there. But then again, there are also reason why it would be valid. The showing itself is basically clearly what it is. The arguable thing is the validity of it. I myself.. it's too much a part of the narrative of the LOTR to throw out, but then Tolkien wrote that essay that makes everything a mishmash. So it's a thing.

I don't personally see the fact that Sauron's power over his army would lead to problems with the plot as relevant as far as Rumbles is concerned; it's not like we require stories to be intelligent, or characters to consistently use their powers at every opportunity to grant them the use of them in Rumbles.

What matter is that their powers be used enough that their having them is acceptable and not say one-issue silver age lunacy (Sauron's power over others is, pretty much, all he's shown doing in the trilogy) and that they be at least fairly consistent about it.

The implication of Sauron having that kind of power on the story of Lord of the Rings and the fact that Tolkien's attempt to close plot holes have their own contradictions with the events of the story have implication regarding how well planned Lord of the Rings was, but shouldn't have any impact on Rumbles' treatment of Sauron's feats.

Or, to put it another way, if a guy repeatedly shows that he can mind-control people throughout his appearances, yet never uses it on the protagonist and is ultimately defeated without even trying it, well as far as Rumbles is concerned that's PIS rather than the guy not actually having the ability to mind-control people.

Or at least that's my view on it.

[Pendaran]

I'm pulling that issue out. I think I'm remembering it out of order then. I was thinking the adamantium barrage came at the end when Strange failed. I do remember Strange saying he wasn't willing to kill the Hulk because they were responsible for the situation after launching him off world. Killing isn't controlling though. Could Strange have destroyed the Hulk's mind? Sure. He was the Sorcerer Supreme. He didn't seem to be able to take control though and as you said even admitted that the attempt would be fatal. The issue wasn't who would win in a fight. That's Dr. Strange. It's whether he could mind control the Hulk.

so, you're arguing that was a solid mental resistance feat for the Hulk still? Despite it involving a spell where Strange wanted the Hulk to voluntarily let him in, to talk to the Hulk, and the Hulk not wanting to let him in. Despite then using said spell imperfectly. Despite that Strange was going at less than full force.

He didn't seem to be able to take control though

He never once tried to in WWH. Where in that comic did Strange ever try to take control of the Hulk's mind.

Issue number in WWH of Strange trying to take control of the Hulk's mind and failing?

[Pendaran]

I don't personally see the fact that Sauron's power over his army would lead to problems with the plot as relevant as far as Rumbles is concerned; it's not like we require stories to be intelligent, or characters to consistently use their powers at every opportunity to grant them the use of them in Rumbles.

What matter is that their powers be used enough that their having them is acceptable and not say one-issue silver age lunacy (Sauron's power over others is, pretty much, all he's shown doing in the trilogy) and that they be at least fairly consistent about it.

The implication of Sauron having that kind of power on the story of Lord of the Rings and the fact that Tolkien's attempt to close plot holes have their own contradictions with the events of the story have implication regarding how well planned Lord of the Rings was, but shouldn't have any impact on Rumbles' treatment of Sauron's feats.

Or, to put it another way, if a guy repeatedly shows that he can mind-control people throughout his appearances, yet never uses it on the protagonist and is ultimately defeated without even trying it, well as far as Rumbles is concerned that's PIS rather than the guy not actually having the ability to mind-control people.

Or at least that's my view on it.

I mean... sure, but it's still a mess.

[KPhilipsen]

The problem with your assertion that the orcs would naturally run away and not fight the humans and elves when not mind controlled is that they totally do fight them on their own. Haven't the elves, orcs and humans been at war for the entire history of Middle Earth? Were they mind controlled by Sauron that entire time? They've also retreated when under Sauron's command when the battle has turned against them, they weren't willing to die for him. They clearly did choose not to fight for him at times. He didn't overcome their self preservation instincts. How hard is it really to get an army of orcs to attack something with overwhelming numbers? It seems to be what orcs do.

[Pendaran]

The problem with your assertion that the orcs would naturally run away and not fight the humans and elves when not mind controlled is that they totally do fight them on their own. Haven't the elves, orcs and humans been at war for the entire history of Middle Earth? Were they mind controlled by Sauron that entire time? They've also retreated when under Sauron's command when the battle has turned against them, they weren't willing to die for him. They clearly did choose not to fight for him at times. He didn't overcome their self preservation instincts. How hard is it really to get an army of orcs to attack something with overwhelming numbers? It seems to be what orcs do.

That has nothing to do with them not having wanted to in that instance, and them being compelled to. Like, even at all.

How hard is it really to get an army of orcs to attack something with overwhelming numbers? It seems to be what orcs do

Hard enough in that specific case that when they could do the exact opposite, they did it in every way they could. You are if anything making even more of an argument for this showing as entirely sweeping mind control as you bet they naturally go to war with these people, yet once the sway of Sauron was gone, they did the opposite as hard as they could. That is how much they were being compelled, that this was a situation where even a natural enmity was not enough otherwise to keep them going, sans mastery of Sauron.

[Siriel]

How hard is it really to get an army of orcs to attack something with overwhelming numbers? It seems to be what orcs do.

When the control fails they proceed to mindlessly run around, kill themselves, and so forth. So pretty clearly no, that's not what those orcs do.

[MidTierHero]

The problem with your assertion that the orcs would naturally run away and not fight the humans and elves when not mind controlled is that they totally do fight them on their own. Haven't the elves, orcs and humans been at war for the entire history of Middle Earth? Were they mind controlled by Sauron that entire time? They've also retreated when under Sauron's command when the battle has turned against them, they weren't willing to die for him. They clearly did choose not to fight for him at times. He didn't overcome their self preservation instincts. How hard is it really to get an army of orcs to attack something with overwhelming numbers? It seems to be what orcs do.

Yes, they have abandoned him when the battle wasn't going his way.

I can see him influencing his own personal army that worships him as a god to attack, to hold formation, etc. with his will. But they are ready and willing subjects to a certain extent. Sauron has never shown to be able (unaided) to control an unwilling entity. It's not (entirely) inconsistent.

Is using telepathy/influence/sorcery on a group of willing people to control their actions less "powerful" than using it on a single foe who is actively resisting? In the LOTR-verse, yes. At least, Sauron is incapable of the latter.

[Pendaran]

Just to keep to the Strange thing for a moment. Here is repeated instances of him saying he's been trying to use a spell that relies on the Hulk wanting to let him in.

From 02

http://postimg.org/image/cvn7vxmc5/

From 03

http://postimg.org/image/jrf691wyx/

That's even him acknowledging he's now using a spell that's supposed to have the guy let you in, other than it is meant to be used. Despite that Strange is using magic that is supposed to function on voluntary consent in the first place. Despite that Strange is holding back. Despite that Strange proceeds to only then try and talk the Hulk down, you are claiming this sequence shows "he didn't seem to be able to take control."

When did he ever try?

[Pendaran]

Yes, they have abandoned him when the battle wasn't going his way.

I can see him influencing his own personal army that worships him as a god to attack, to hold formation, etc. with his will. But they are ready and willing subjects to a certain extent. Sauron has never shown to be able (unaided) to control an unwilling entity. It's not (entirely) inconsistent.

Is using telepathy/influence/sorcery on a group of willing people to control their actions less "powerful" than using it on a single foe who is actively resisting? In the LOTR-verse, yes. At least, Sauron is incapable of the latter.

So, are you arguing the time where he was entirely capable of the latter, against unwilling and unready subjects is SMvFL, or like Kphillipsen are you trying to claim that despite the text itself it never happened in the first place? Because the second means you're doing the Homer Simpson thing with the novel where when it gets boring you write your own, unless you have some material that actually shows otherwise.

If they were willing to serve and do all that stuff in that instance, why was their reaction when the compulsion was gone to do it so sharply against it?

[KPhilipsen]

I'm saying that keeping Strange out to the point that his only option to force his way in would kill you is impressive. Strange is a rather (ridiculously) powerful character. The Hulk blocked him out of his mind until the adamantium barrage and then forced him back out once he was inside. Yes, he crushed his hands but on the psychic plane, not the physical. That's a mental feat.

[KPhilipsen]

What text? Again, I'm only familiar with LotR and Sauron has never exhibited any direct mind control of anybody. Can he implant suggestions and doubts? Sure. He poisons minds. Direct mental domination? Where? When? One of the Naz'Ghul spoke with his voice once, right? Sauron seems much more like Nightmare than Xavier.

[Pendaran]

What text? Again, I'm only familiar with LotR and Sauron has never exhibited any direct mind control of anybody. Can he implant suggestions and doubts? Sure. He poisons minds. Direct mental domination? Where? When?

Sharp, quotes right from the material, on page 2 of the thread. http://community.comicbookresources....l=1#post985481