Hulk vs Mordo

[KPhilipsen]

Again, has Sauron controlled the orcs throughout history? They were never free? I thought it was only the Uruk-hai that were engineered?

[Pendaran]

Eru is God, more or less. Sauron can certainly enslave a whole big otherwise unwilling army, at least as presented in the text itself. If you want to argue the showing itself isn't valid, feel free, I myself acknowledge there is some case to be made there, of sorts. But the stuff you've been doing has nothing to do with it. The showing happened. Welcome to Rumbles, where you can go "okay, the showing happened, but I think it wasn't valid and here's why."

For instance, for my part, okay, the showing happened, but it makes a mess of the narrative and a later essay written to explain it instead makes it impossible that it could have happened. Yet, it happened. It also doesn't work with that him and Galadriel telepathically kung fu fought. If she was protected, her ass shouldn't have had to bother. Yet both the army collapsing like that and Galadriel's resistance are both in their own way important elements of plot and character, and Sauron being able to make that all go is thus needed. It makes the whole thing a narrative bout of unfortunateness when you think about it in any depth.

By contrast to that, what Siriel notes about that being irrelevant as far as the mess it makes, PIS happens and we don't really have to care about the narrative in that way, well, that's certainly a counterpoint to be made.

[Pendaran]

Again, has Sauron controlled the orcs throughout history? They were never free? I thought it was only the Uruk-hai that were engineered?

Considering Morgoth made the orcs, nope. And at other times, nope. He sure controlled the hell out of them there though.

[Pendaran]

Oh, just to be completist, Strange explaining that there spell some more

http://postimg.org/image/nge5aydal/

Saying that "he couldn't mind control the Hulk because if he could have he would have", when Strange is trying to reach a peaceful resolution with the Hulk and come to terms with him.. yeah. Strange saying that he'd otherwise have to stop the Hulk by killing him is not a feat for the Hulk when /Strange does nothing else/. You're basically arguing Strange not actually doing something is the feat.

Here's what that set of comics concretely provides: Strange used a spell that normally requires voluntary participation to work. He didn't get it and so used the spell in a way it was not meant to work. He said he was doing this because he was going at this less than full force and wanted a peaceful resolution. This statement is borne out by him using magic that is well beneath his shit, as, see above.

Strange then gets in, tries to talk out the Hulk, and gets his hands crushed. This breaks his hands in the real world too, maybe as feedback, whatever. Strange is regardless now out of the Hulk's mind. If you take that as a demonstration of the Hulk mentally manhandling him and his sheer power in a mental fight, well, you've argued that the Hulk is significantly more powerful than Dormammu. Who could not manage such things despite pulping Strange in his psyche to a bag of flesh. When Strange was depowered.

This is also why taking something like the Xemnu stuff seriously is... more than a bit of a thing. Strange depowered can still keep it together psychically to fight his way to into the center of Dormammu's psyche/spirit, then even while being pulped to a bag of flesh, keep it together long enough to zap Dormmamu with the eye of agamotto. This is just one of the mental resistance/accomplishments feats of one Stevie Strange.

[AlphaMale]

Indeed, the context clearly (as opposed to ambiguously) indicates in order for that particular spell to work, the Hulk has to be willing to allow.

[KPhilipsen]

I think my position on Dr. Strange and the Hulk is being misunderstood. Strange tried to mentally contact the Hulk but the Hulk didn't answer. Strange couldn't force his way into the Hulk's mind without killing him. There was no other option. That was stated clearly. It was either cooperation or death. Then when the Hulk was injured Strange snuck in while the Hulk's defenses were down. This led to the confrontation where the Hulk surprised Strange, broke his hands on the psychic plane(!) (why is nobody impressed by this?!!!) and kicked him out not only of his mind but back into his body. That's impressive. He didn't grab Strange's astral form as the Hulk or punch a ghost he straight up on the mental plane broke the sorcerer supreme's hands and kicked him out of his mind. Did he surprise him? Sure. Is that something any Tom, Dick or Harry can do to the Sorcerer Supreme? Hardly.

Strange couldn't force his way in, couldn't keep from being thrown out and couldn't fight the Hulk mentally without using a lethal spell. I don't get how that isn't only a feat but one of the Hulk's higher showings as a feat? Strange flat out underestimated the Hulk and it cost him.

[Pendaran]

Strange couldn't force his way into the Hulk's mind without killing him.

No, he said he couldn't stop the Hulk without killing him. When did Strange say he couldn't force his way into the Hulk's mind without killing him? Page number?

There was no other option. That was stated clearly

Nope. And by the way, if you're indeed going with "because Strange said", Strange also told the Hulk he could kill him with minimal effort. That decidedly doesn't fly with what you're otherwise arguing. Do you want the scan of that one?

This led to the confrontation where the Hulk surprised Strange, broke his hands on the psychic plane(!) (why is nobody impressed by this?!!!)

Because probably only you and one other poster want to argue the Hulk is vastly more powerful than Dormammu.

He didn't grab Strange's astral form as the Hulk or punch a ghost he straight up on the mental plane broke the sorcerer supreme's hands and kicked him out of his mind. Did he surprise him? Sure. Is that something any Tom, Dick or Harry can do to the Sorcerer Supreme? Hardly.

How much more powerful than Dormmamu at the heart of his power, who needed the Hulk, the Silver Surfer, Ghost Rider (and Clea I guess) taking him on at once, with Strange blasting him in the center of his very soul/psyche with the eye of Agamotto to even temporarily knock him down and sort of drive him away, would you say the Hulk is?

[Pendaran]

This is what Dormammu did to Doctor Strange when he took him on psychic styles, after Strange fought his way to the center of his psyche/spirit.

To review, Strange, depowered, still managed to fight his way inside Dormammu's psyche despite Dormammu certainly not wanting him there. Dormmamu doing... that.. to him as they fought somehow did not affect Strange physically, and Strange kept it together anyway long enough to zorch Dormammu by channeling the Eye

http://postimg.org/image/d8pv8m5jf/

So, how much more powerful than Dormammu are you arguing the Hulk is?

Doctor Strange v1 50, for those wanting to go all Levar Burton.

[KPhilipsen]

Please don't take my position to be that the Hulk could in any way put up a fight against Dr. Strange. In an Arena battle the Hulk would be annihilated in any number of ways. Strange flat out said that he could kill him.

[Pendaran]

Please don't take my position to be that the Hulk could in any way put up a fight against Dr. Strange. In an Arena battle the Hulk would be annihilated in any number of ways. Strange flat out said that he could kill him.

Is the Hulk vastly more powerful than Dormammu or not? If not, what happened there, low showing for the flame bucket head do you figure? He was rocking pretty hard otherwise in that comic.

[KPhilipsen]

That's a semantic detail and not what happened in the comic. The spell, when the Hulk's guard was down, contacted him. It didn't "stop" him.

Why offer the scan? I've got the book right here. We're agreed. Strange is more powerful than the Hulk.

Why argue a strawman? I've never once mentioned Dormamummy or whoever.

If you're arguing that BigD can't hurt Strange's astral form I don't know what to tell you? The Hulk did. We both saw it. WWH was a pretty crazy showing for the Hulk. He was causing earthquakes with footsteps by the end. I guess surprised Strange is at a greater disadvantage than depowered Strange? Damned if I know. As far as why Strange didn't kill Hulk the answer is simple and answered on page. He just didn't want to.

[Pendaran]

That's a semantic detail and not what happened in the comic. The spell, when the Hulk's guard was down, contacted him. It didn't "stop" him.

Why offer the scan? I've got the book right here. We're agreed. Strange is more powerful than the Hulk.

Why argue a strawman? I've never once mentioned Dormamummy or whoever.

You argue both that Strange could not get inside the Hulk's head without killing him, and that if this is indeed somehow so, that's totally valid.

Strange fought his way into the mind of a vastly more powerful being, who did not want him there. He couldn't manage that on the Hulk because why then? Despite again, that he never actually tried to and only used a spell designed for peaceful contact, what with him wanting, peaceful contact.

You argue that the Hulk busting Strange's hands such that Strange was then forced out and was even maimed in the physical world, is this massive feat for the Hulk, and also totally valid for how you present it.

Strange was outright mentally pulped in psychic combat with a vastly more powerful being, and yet this somehow did nothing to his body, and he even kept it together long enough to fry Dormammu in the soul.

So, if everything is as you claim, and it's all valid, how could any of that have happened, and how much more powerful is the Hulk than this being who was otherwise so powerful a classic Defenders reunion minus Namor and replaced with Ghost Rider could but temporarily knock him down. I mean at least Strange was depowered at the time, but the Eye itself was fine and he shot the guy in his soul with it.

Dormammu, if you're otherwise wondering, is a guy Classic Strange at full power can take on, and maybe with a miracle or at least prep and a whole lot of ragged almost die strain, eke out a win. He's otherwise a guy Strange will go "fuck it" and run from, for knowing his chances.

[Pendaran]

Basically, you're arguing that despite this vastly better showing for Strange, involving even similar things, more powerful people, and a situation of him being psychically maimed and having to fight his way inside the mind of a being who doesn't want him there, and Strange himself being depowered, that all these problems you want to note Strange had with the Hulk, super valid.

And that's even setting aside the issues with the comic's own content. This is for instance, part of how showings get weighed. How much sense do they make with the capacity of the characters involved, especially in the context of other feats and performances.

[KPhilipsen]

Apparently the ability to affect physical bodies from the astral plane is incredibly overpowered. The Hulk still did it, right? It happened. I guess it's canon that the Hulk *is* more powerful than Dormamu?

[Pendaran]

If you're arguing that BigD can't hurt Strange's astral form I don't know what to tell you? The Hulk did. We both saw it. WWH was a pretty crazy showing for the Hulk. He was causing earthquakes with footsteps by the end. I guess surprised Strange is at a greater disadvantage than depowered Strange? Damned if I know. As far as why Strange didn't kill Hulk the answer is simple and answered on page. He just didn't want to.

Ah, we're back to the Captain Cold thing. "He did it, we both saw it"

Why did Strange taking far worse damage than from a far more powerful being, when Strange was ontop of that depowered, that do nothing to his physical form?

Why would Strange only be able to force his way into the Hulk's mind by killing him if he can force his way into the mind of more powerful beings than the Hulk?