Page 3 of 17 FirstFirst 123456713 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 242

Thread: Hulk vs Mordo

  1. #31
    nice to meet ya! master of read's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    36,272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I have to play by the rules here as well. If I can't pony up specific feats (personally, I figure 'Sauron mind-controls his entire bloody army of orcs, trolls, and beasts' is good enough, but that's me), then that's how it is.
    that's mostly because i know you are well versed on the topic and can pony up the feats better than most.

  2. #32
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    13,890

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    that's mostly because i know you are well versed on the topic and can pony up the feats better than most.
    In this case, what I have is 'Sauron mentally controls his army'. :) For me, that's good enough (especially with the business I discussed earlier and now, cannot bloody well find. Will have to do an extensive search at some point or, more likely, PM Estrecca).

    For others, probably not. Mileage does vary.

  3. #33
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,570

    Default

    It is from an essay titled Osanwe-kenta (Enquiry into the communication of thought). Part most directly relevant to unwill:

    Pengolodh says that all minds (sáma, pl. sámar) are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength. A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties. The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties. If we call one mind G (for guest or comer) and the other H (for host or receiver), then G must have full intention to inspect H or to inform it. But knowledge may be gained or imparted by G, even when H is not seeking or intending to impart or to learn: the act of G will be effective, if H is simply “open” (láta; látie “openness”). This distinction, he says, is of the greatest importance.
    “Openness” is the natural or simple state (indo) of a mind that is not otherwise engaged. In “Arda Unmarred” (that is, in ideal conditions free from evil) openness would be the normal state. Nonetheless any mind may be closed (pahta). This requires an act of conscious will: Unwill (avanir). It may be made against G, against G and some others, or be a total retreat into “privacy” (aquapahtie).
    Though in “Arda Unmarred” openness is the normal state, every mind has, from its first making as an individual, the right to close; and it has absolute power to make this effective by will. Nothing can penetrate the barrier of Unwill.
    [...]
    Pengolodh then proceeds to the abuses of sanwe.
    “For” he says, “some who have read so far, may already have questioned my lore, saying: This seems not to accord with the histories. If the sáma were inviolable by force, how could Melkor have deceived so many minds and enslaved so many? Or is it not rather true that the sáma may be protected by greater strength but captured also by greater strength? Wherefore Melkor, the greatest, and even to the last possessing the most fixed, determined and ruthless will, could penetrate the minds of the Valar, but withhold himself from them, so that even Manwë in dealing with him may seem to us at times feeble, unwary, and deceived. Is this not so?”
    I say that it is not so.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,459

    Default

    I mean if he legitimately mindwhacked his whole army and the other stuff bears out in the writing somewhere for why he couldn't throw that onto others, sure.

    edit: though the above post seems to suggest some kind of otherwise. Like going by that he couldn't possibly have mindwhacked his army.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I mean if he legitimately mindwhacked his whole army and the other stuff bears out in the writing somewhere for why he couldn't throw that onto others, sure.

    edit: though the above post seems to suggest some kind of otherwise. Like going by that he couldn't possibly have mindwhacked his army.
    Pretty much half of Osanwe-kenta is explaining how Melkor's stuff (and by extension Sauron's) works in a framework in which you cannot bruteforce mind control against a fundamentally unwilling mind.

    In essence, unwill ceases to be a concern if the target mind is tricked or intimidated somehow into opening itself, which is easier with incarnated creatures.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,459

    Default

    Sure, but that would basically mean even Sauron's army couldn't be mind controlled until those conditions were met, which would put a huge limiter on dude's capacity for anyone. It also reads like one of those essays that don't quite work with the rest of the material, as something like Sauron and Galadriel mentally going at each other wouldn't even have been possible.

  7. #37
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    13,890

    Default

    Thanks, Estrecca. Always count on you for the Lore Details. ^_^ Need to pick up the last of the Histories and other stuff myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Sure, but that would basically mean even Sauron's army couldn't be mind controlled until those conditions were met, which would put a huge limiter on dude's capacity for anyone. It also reads like one of those essays that don't quite work with the rest of the material, as something like Sauron and Galadriel mentally going at each other wouldn't even have been possible.
    Thus, we run into some issues that, as I see it, leave us with two possibilities.

    1. The Essay is how it is. Sauron gets by with his enormous presence to intimidate/break people (over and over we get the idea that nobody can actually come before him and stand, he can extend his presence outside of his reach in search of the Ring, people can feel it, etc). He's then perfectly capable of enslaving them. With Galadriel, it's either he's seeking to crush her so that she gives in, or just the fact that she has a Ring and he has links to that Ring allows him to at least try. Or maybe that's just an error. For his armies, he has already set up a situation where they're accepting of his presence, due to being created by him, bred by him, raised by him. Heck, it talks about them being enslaved by spells as well.

    Which still leaves him in a situation where he's exerting his own personal presence over an entire army, such that once he goes the whole thing collapses. Whether or not minds are open to each other in Middle Earth, or need to be opened first, the feat is still 'Sauron mentally has a hold over his entire army.'

    2. We don't take the essay. In which case there's contradictory stuff. But part of that contradictory stuff is in favour of the mental power of Sauron as well - his mental dueling with Galadriel, his mental control over thousands upon thousands of creatures, etc.

    I'm personally for the first choice, and still feel that the feat stands in that case. Sauron, once he gets past the natural resistance automatically set up for a resisting being in Middle Earth (how? Palantir, massive presence breaking them, whatever), is perfectly capable of exerting vast amounts of mental power to control, enslave, whatever. He prevents Saruman from breaking contact with him. He manages to control what Denethor sees, despite Denethor having some 'rightful' level of ownership over a Palantir (again, this actually carries weight). He controls his entire army of beings through 'spells' and so forth, as stated in the text. Presumably, his mental duels with Galadriel were more to try to break her, to force this state of openness to his will by continually hammering away with his vast, supernatural presence. But, like Elrond, she is a force of denial. She resists, and will continue to resist.

    Others may see it differently, and that's cool.

    So, even if we sport the Hulk the same resistance in this circumstance, does anyone honestly think Sauron couldn't manage to get into the Hulk's mind anyway, by hook or crook? And, once there and employing the sort of psychic heft it takes to mentally enslave thousands of people, do something about him?

  8. #38

    Default

    Sauron's orc armies collapsed when he was destroyed because they were utterly demoralized. One of Tolkien's flaws is his view of good and evil as absolutes. Good is brave, selfless, elegant and handsome. Evil is cowardly, ugly and weak-willed. The orcs just witnessed the being that was essentially their God get crushed - of course they would be demoralized and fall into chaos. The comparison of them being like an ant troop without their queen is apt because without leadership they fall apart but that does not mean they are being mind-controlled. Again, if they were, they would be unwilling victims of Sauron and that is clearly not the case. The quote mentions BEASTS that are spell enslaved and I take that to mean the mastodons, wolves and other creatures of war without intelligence that were part of Sauron's armies.

    At no time does it ever say that Sauron has direct telepathic control of his armies ("do this, do that.") Influencing them through fear and appealing to their baser natures? Sure. Making people crap their pants through intimidation and aura power? Sure. Mind-jacking someone, especially someone who is not an underling? Never happened. Now that may be because in Tolkien's universe that isn't possible, but that doesn't change the fact that Sauron doesn't have the feats to do this.

    Nowhere does it say that orcs are except from Tolkien's ban on outright mind-control. And Sauron's armies have abandoned him in the past as well. When Ar-Pharazôn marched on Mordor, Sauron's own armies abandoned him. If he had telepathic control over them that wouldn't have happened.

    I will modify my statement about Hulk crushing the Ring. While I do think he's physically strong enough to do it, he may fall under it's sway, and definitely will if he isn't aware of it's evil nature. If Sauron's going to gain control of the Hulk mentally, it will be through the Ring manipulating him, or another Ring of Power, as that was their sole purpose, to bind people to Sauron's will since he can't do it on his own.

  9. #39
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MidTierHero View Post
    At no time does it ever say that Sauron has direct telepathic control of his armies ("do this, do that.") Influencing them through fear and appealing to their baser natures? Sure. Making people crap their pants through intimidation and aura power? Sure. Mind-jacking someone, especially someone who is not an underling? Never happened. Now that may be because in Tolkien's universe that isn't possible, but that doesn't change the fact that Sauron doesn't have the feats to do this.
    *yawn*

    Actually, it totally happened.

    Pippin sat with his knees drawn up and the ball between them. He bent low over it, looking like a greedy child stooping over a bowl of food, in a corner away from others. He drew his cloak aside and gazed at it. The air seemed still and tense about him. At first the globe was dark, black as jet, with the moonlight gleaming on its surface. Then there came a faint glow and stir in the heart of it, and it held his eyes, so that now he could not look away. Soon all the inside seemed on fire; the ball was spinning, or the lights within were revolving. Suddenly the lights went out. He gave a gasp and struggled; but he remained bent, clasping the ball with both hands. Closer and closer he bent, and then became rigid; his lips moved soundlessly for a while. Then with a strangled cryhe fell back and lay still.
    The cry was piercing. The guards leapt down from the banks. All the camp was soon astir.
    'So this is the thief!' said Gandalf. Hastily he cast his cloak over the globe where it lay. 'But you, Pippin! This is a grievous turn to things!' He knelt by Pippin's body: the hobbit was lying on his back rigid, with unseeing eyes staring up at the sky. 'The devilry! What mischief has he done – to himself, and to all of us?' The wizard's face was drawn and haggard.
    He took Pippin's hand and bent over his face, listening for his breath; then he laid his hands on his brow. The hobbit shuddered. His eyes closed. He cried out and sat up, staring in bewilderment at all the faces round him, pale in the moonlight.
    'It is not for you, Saruman!' he cried in a shrill and toneless voice shrinking away from Gandalf. 'I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!' Then he struggled to get up and escape but Gandalf held him gently and firmly.
    'Peregrin Took!' he said. 'Come back!'


    It just so happened that Sauron was so very surprised to find a hobbit looking into a palantir, that he assumed the wrong things and cut the connection leaving only the implanted command to repeat his words to Saruman.

  10. #40

    Default

    The key thing is Pippn was using the palantir. We've already established that by using a palantir, or a Ring of Power, Sauron can mentally dominate someone, which is what makes them so dangerous. These are the exceptions. But since Hulk doesn't have a palantir, it really isn't an issue.

  11. #41
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    13,890

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MidTierHero View Post
    Sauron's orc armies collapsed when he was destroyed because they were utterly demoralized. One of Tolkien's flaws is his view of good and evil as absolutes. Good is brave, selfless, elegant and handsome. Evil is cowardly, ugly and weak-willed. The orcs just witnessed the being that was essentially their God get crushed - of course they would be demoralized and fall into chaos.
    This is contradicted by both the analogy Tolkien used (and the specific wording therein) and the fact that basically everything went absolutely crazy after he died, to the point where some went completely mindless. And that a completely different thing happened with the humans in his army.

    There is at least some measure of control happening here.

    The ban on mind control works so long as the other person isn't persuaded or intimidated into opening, ie ceasing resistance. Sauron bred the orcs, they grew within his presence, said presence being noted in a whole lot of places as being something nigh-impossible to withstand. It's hardly surprising he had access to their minds.

    Estrecca has done a better job than I would with an example of the mind-jacking. We can add to that Gandalf's point about Saruman getting 'caught' by Sauron, being locked in and forced to deal with his presence through the palantir rather than making the wise choice of 'shut off crystal ball by looking away'.

    As for the Ring, I agree. Hulk could likely break it, but wouldn't be capable of making the attempt.

  12. #42
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    13,890

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MidTierHero View Post
    The key thing is Pippn was using the palantir. We've already established that by using a palantir, or a Ring of Power, Sauron can mentally dominate someone, which is what makes them so dangerous. These are the exceptions. But since Hulk doesn't have a palantir, it really isn't an issue.
    The palantiri are really only a method of circumventing the normal, built-in resistance in Tolkien's world to such things. As noted in his essay, intimidation or manipulation can also open a mind allowing the same thing to happen. It doesn't give the person the POWER to do mind control, any more than the palantiri do. It just gives them access.

    Sauron, with access, CAN pull off stuff like he did with Pippen. And control his creatures.

    Hence, his control over his armies.

  13. #43
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MidTierHero View Post
    The key thing is Pippn was using the palantir. We've already established that by using a palantir, or a Ring of Power, Sauron can mentally dominate someone, which is what makes them so dangerous. These are the exceptions. But since Hulk doesn't have a palantir, it really isn't an issue.
    The key thing is that the palantir allows Sauron to project his will and thought much farther than he could naturally to interact directly with a mind unknown to him. It is not a matter of ability, but rather one of range.

    It follows that he would have to be close to Hulk to try mental domination tricks. Whether "close" means "close enough for Hulk to punch him into orbit" is essentially unknowable, but the possibility at least exists.

  14. #44
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    The palantiri are really only a method of circumventing the normal, built-in resistance in Tolkien's world to such things. As noted in his essay, intimidation or manipulation can also open a mind allowing the same thing to happen. It doesn't give the person the POWER to do mind control, any more than the palantiri do. It just gives them access.

    Sauron, with access, CAN pull off stuff like he did with Pippen. And control his creatures.

    Hence, his control over his armies.
    Sure, absolutely, and I can't think anyone would argue that - it's a pretty massive plot-point that opening oneself up to Sauron doesn't leave you with a lot of outs. See: Nazgul (rings), Saruman and Pippin (palantiri, even if only in limited fashion), his armies (expressly work for him). Even Galadriel wears a ring, that Sauron has explicit power over, though she doesn't succumb. I don't think that in this situation, Hulk is going to open himself up. And without that, Sauron has no feats at all for taking someone over. If Hulk wears the ring, or stares into a palantir, sure, Sauron (or simply the Ring) could make nasty stuff happen, but that's not what happens here, is it? (Checks OP) Nope, here, Hulk simply decides to do the smashy-smashy on Mordor. None of the armies will make him slow down, so it just comes down to smashing up the tower - and Hulk could launch that thing into orbit.

    Hell, if Hulk donned the Ring, it might be worse for Sauron. Gollum certainly never brought the ring to Sauron, and even revealing that Baggins stole the thing took extreme torture. But it did turn a nice, sweet hobbit into a raving monster willing to sacrifice everything just to possess it. I could as easily imagine Hulk just getting batshit crazier with the ring, and leveling all of ME. Unless Tulkas decides to come play, it's game over at that point.

    The argument that Eru gave every being in ME the ability to resist, but that somehow that wouldn't apply to someone from somewhere else, seems a little shaky. It would seem to get into the argument that Wally West can't do speed force tricks if he's in Khazan or in Marvel 616, that Strange couldn't call on most of his magic, or that Neo's powers wouldn't work outside of the Matrix - and that's generally stuff we try to avoid in a Rumble (well, without specific scenarios). Plus, the text could as easily be interpreted that Eru simply made the universe incompatible with mental domination on the unwilling.

    Tl;dr: without feats for Sauron dominating the unwilling, I'd be unlikely to want to grant such a thing. Emma Frost (to use an example) has hundreds of feats for simply making people do what she wants with a thought, at long range, despite them being diametrically opposed to that thing. Sauron... doesn't, not without special circumstances.

  15. #45
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    13,890

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Sure, absolutely, and I can't think anyone would argue that - it's a pretty massive plot-point that opening oneself up to Sauron doesn't leave you with a lot of outs. See: Nazgul (rings), Saruman and Pippin (palantiri, even if only in limited fashion), his armies (expressly work for him). Even Galadriel wears a ring, that Sauron has explicit power over, though she doesn't succumb. I don't think that in this situation, Hulk is going to open himself up. And without that, Sauron has no feats at all for taking someone over. If Hulk wears the ring, or stares into a palantir, sure, Sauron (or simply the Ring) could make nasty stuff happen, but that's not what happens here, is it? (Checks OP) Nope, here, Hulk simply decides to do the smashy-smashy on Mordor. None of the armies will make him slow down, so it just comes down to smashing up the tower - and Hulk could launch that thing into orbit.

    Hell, if Hulk donned the Ring, it might be worse for Sauron. Gollum certainly never brought the ring to Sauron, and even revealing that Baggins stole the thing took extreme torture. But it did turn a nice, sweet hobbit into a raving monster willing to sacrifice everything just to possess it. I could as easily imagine Hulk just getting batshit crazier with the ring, and leveling all of ME. Unless Tulkas decides to come play, it's game over at that point.
    At actually that point, he's sitting in front of Sauron wearing the Ring. Tolkien is pretty specific about how that'll run, and the Hulk isn't exactly full of feats that say he'll be able to handle that situation. As for Gollum not bringing it to him, there are a variety of reasons for that - distance (weakening the power Sauron has over the bearer, that's specifically addressed in the books), Sauron being weakened at the time (he grows into his full strength as the books go onward), etc. And not revealing where the Ring was? That's a measure of the Ring's power over Gollum. Pretty horrific.

    Otherwise, I understand your objections.

    The argument that Eru gave every being in ME the ability to resist, but that somehow that wouldn't apply to someone from somewhere else, seems a little shaky. It would seem to get into the argument that Wally West can't do speed force tricks if he's in Khazan or in Marvel 616, that Strange couldn't call on most of his magic, or that Neo's powers wouldn't work outside of the Matrix - and that's generally stuff we try to avoid in a Rumble (well, without specific scenarios). Plus, the text could as easily be interpreted that Eru simply made the universe incompatible with mental domination on the unwilling.
    If you want to go the latter route, there's room for argumentation and I'll leave the specifics to Estrecca to address as he knows more about it. If it turns out that's the case, then absolutely, the Hulk in Middle Earth garners the same sort of benefits as outlined in the essay.

    The former? Not the case. It's not a matter of DENYING someone a power that they show in-universe because they're in Khazan (which is the Neo thing, or the Speed Force thing, or the Force thing, or Strange's incantations to entities thing, or whatever). Rather, it's noting that 'the people in that universe have this specific ability to resist, which people in other universes DO NOT have.' There's a difference, and it's an important one.

    Anyway, those are my feelings on the subject. I'm personally cool with Sauron having the power to mentally dominate people, given his control over his entire army, and he can certainly reach out and express his presence at a great distance. Mileage may vary.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •