Hulk vs Mordo

[big_adventure]

At actually that point, he's sitting in front of Sauron wearing the Ring. Tolkien is pretty specific about how that'll run, and the Hulk isn't exactly full of feats that say he'll be able to handle that situation. As for Gollum not bringing it to him, there are a variety of reasons for that - distance (weakening the power Sauron has over the bearer, that's specifically addressed in the books), Sauron being weakened at the time (he grows into his full strength as the books go onward), etc. And not revealing where the Ring was? That's a measure of the Ring's power over Gollum. Pretty horrific.

Otherwise, I understand your objections.

I don't disagree about what Tolkien is specific about - hell, with anything you say there. I was simply offering up the possibility of what could happen, if, say, Hulk rampaged through the opening of Fellowship, picked up the bling, and jumped away. If he directly approached Sauron, he's toast, but if he just stayed made, he'd make desert out of much of ME before getting to Mordor.

If you want to go the latter route, there's room for argumentation and I'll leave the specifics to Estrecca to address as he knows more about it. If it turns out that's the case, then absolutely, the Hulk in Middle Earth garners the same sort of benefits as outlined in the essay.

The former? Not the case. It's not a matter of DENYING someone a power that they show in-universe because they're in Khazan (which is the Neo thing, or the Speed Force thing, or the Force thing, or Strange's incantations to entities thing, or whatever). Rather, it's noting that 'the people in that universe have this specific ability to resist, which people in other universes DO NOT have.' There's a difference, and it's an important one.

Anyway, those are my feelings on the subject. I'm personally cool with Sauron having the power to mentally dominate people, given his control over his entire army, and he can certainly reach out and express his presence at a great distance. Mileage may vary.

As far as the resistance - I can see the argument going either way, plus I've got no real skin in this particular game.

For the "powers working or not working based on where we are" thing, it's not identical, but it is not as different as all of that. Especially the speed force thing - that works precisely because the speed force does touch everything in DC. But we don't cripple Wally when he's somewhere that those rules don't apply.

More importantly, Sauron specifically lacks any kind of feats for ever working any mind mojo on anyone who doesn't get Eru's blessing there. So saying that he could do something that he never does and never even tries is kind of hard to defend, based on one interpretation of one line in one essay.

[KPhilipsen]

Would WWH's resistance to Xavier's mind control in WWH vs X-men be a feat in Hulk's favour for resisting Saurons mind trickery or is that considered a different Hulk? WWH basically no sold telepathic manipulation at a high level. He also consistently resists the Leader's mind blasts which if I'm not mistaken allow him to overpower gamma powered individuals mind's.

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[Anarchist]

There wasn't any *resistance* in that at all.
Hulk even screamed off in pain and Xavier was already in his mind.
He just decided no to brainfry him because of plot reasons.

[The Dork Knight]

im curious about when sauron fought galadriel mentally
oh and as I recall tulkas had zero feats to imply he was stronger than hulk

[KPhilipsen]

Really? Xavier is quoted as saying: "The Hulk's mind has always been unique... Difficult to control... But I've never encountered anything like this. The rage like an elemental force. I can't overcome it." That was all on panel. Also, everyone screamed in pain from the feedback to my recall. The psychic backlash hurt everyone I thought. I'd have to dig the book out of storage but I'll check.

[KPhilipsen]

Double post. Edited to a reply.

[Sharpandpointies]

IAs far as the resistance - I can see the argument going either way, plus I've got no real skin in this particular game.

For the "powers working or not working based on where we are" thing, it's not identical, but it is not as different as all of that. Especially the speed force thing - that works precisely because the speed force does touch everything in DC. But we don't cripple Wally when he's somewhere that those rules don't apply.

We don't cripple Wally because he's USING the speedforce. We do not, however, apply the speedforce to everyone else he faces.

If it's a granted resistance, something Eru has gifted to everyone in his universe, then that's what it is. Something granted, specific to the people of that universe (if it's something intrinsic to the universe itself, rather than Eru saying 'no, that **** doesn't fly with my people'), and not to others.

Put another way, some god in some other universe decides that everyone in his universe is immune to bullets. One guy in that universe has invented a gun. He tries to shoot people. It doesn't work out so well because everyone in that universe is immune to bullets.

Do we then grant anyone he faces with that pistol in Khazan the same immunity?

An exaggeration to clarify, but.

More importantly, Sauron specifically lacks any kind of feats for ever working any mind mojo on anyone who doesn't get Eru's blessing there. So saying that he could do something that he never does and never even tries is kind of hard to defend, based on one interpretation of one line in one essay.

The thing is, once he gets past that resistance, he does just fine. And he has actual feats for reaching out to other minds, or sending his presence to other places, and the like.

But fair enough.

[Sharpandpointies]

im curious about when sauron fought galadriel mentally

It's a stated thing by Galadriel, that she's always feeling his thoughts on her, trying to get stuff about the elves and their business out of her, or somesuch. 'But the door is always barred,' she says, or something to that effect.

Book isn't in front of me right now.

As for the Hulk, who said Tulkas was stronger?

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

As for the Hulk, who said Tulkas was stronger?

Big mentioned Tulkas 'coming out to play', didn't say anything about him being stronger though.

[Pendaran]

Would WWH's resistance to Xavier's mind control in WWH vs X-men be a feat in Hulk's favour for resisting Saurons mind trickery or is that considered a different Hulk? WWH basically no sold telepathic manipulation at a high level. He also consistently resists the Leader's mind blasts which if I'm not mistaken allow him to overpower gamma powered individuals mind's.

925931-scans.jpg925931-scans.jpg

No, it wouldn't, it would be more "a guy who can otherwise use the collected minds of an entire planet's worth of people as weapons" and otherwise telepathically best an embodiment of the collected hatred of mankind jobbed out largely.

He also consistently resists the Leader's mind blasts which if I'm not mistaken allow him to overpower gamma powered individuals mind's.

How much more powerful telepathically do you figure Abyss and Thanos (Thanos on a day where he is so low ebb he can be hurt by shots from Captain America) are than the Leader and Charles Xavier? Or.. anyone who has over the years effed about with the Hulk's mind or otherwise put a control effect on him.

[Pendaran]

My thing here is this. Going by the Sauron jacked his army brain styles thing, sure, yes, his mind powers would be useful just fine here. And that's right from the text, yes. But then you run into "but then why does he never.." and that is sort of glaring. And then, okay, you have the essay which sort of explains it, but then the essay contradicts other things in the actual material, and not small things either, and it makes all of this a bit of a mess.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

My thing here is this. Going by the Sauron jacked his army brain styles thing, sure, yes, his mind powers would be useful just fine here. And that's right from the text, yes. But then you run into "but then why does he never.." and that is sort of glaring. And then, okay, you have the essay which sort of explains it, but then the essay contradicts other things in the actual material, and not small things either, and it makes all of this a bit of a mess.

Evil is messy.

[Pendaran]

If it's a granted resistance, something Eru has gifted to everyone in his universe, then that's what it is. Something granted, specific to the people of that universe (if it's something intrinsic to the universe itself, rather than Eru saying 'no, that **** doesn't fly with my people'), and not to others.

Put another way, some god in some other universe decides that everyone in his universe is immune to bullets. One guy in that universe has invented a gun. He tries to shoot people. It doesn't work out so well because everyone in that universe is immune to bullets.

Do we then grant anyone he faces with that pistol in Khazan the same immunity?

We wouldn't, but that's not really the problem, the problem is that the essay where all this comes from to establish this stuff, it fits not great with actual stuff from the plot, which makes reconciling a thing.

[Pendaran]

More importantly, Sauron specifically lacks any kind of feats for ever working any mind mojo on anyone who doesn't get Eru's blessing there. So saying that he could do something that he never does and never even tries is kind of hard to defend, based on one interpretation of one line in one essay.

If you accept the Eru's blessing thing as a thing, which, problems, but if you do, this isn't really an argument. This would be saying that because Sauron has to use his powers under massive limiters yet manages to achieve staggering success with them anyway, when those limiters are gone, he will do worse/needs feats to show he could perform at all. It would be like arguing "just because those cosmic blasts when weakened ripped right through that omnium steel wall, doesn't mean that when at full strength they would rip through this omnium steel wall".

[Sharpandpointies]

That I can get behind. (Edit: Two posts above)

Thus, we get into 'where does this sit, Rumbles Rules?'

What's PIS, here? What's SMvsFL? Is it outside of Sauron's presentation that he can pull off stuff like control his army, or smoke Pippen's brain in an instant (yes, Pippen, but Hobbits resistance to stuff via presentation and so forth, etc), or catch Saruman's mind once they bump into each other playing around on Middle Earth's chat forum, or mentally assail Galadriel over time and a great distance? Or is it simply outside of what we would consider to be his established powers (I'd be curious to know what those are, anyway, because taking away 'domination' doesn't actually leave him with a whole lot... :)?

Or is it PIS that he doesn't do stuff like that at other times?

Or is he tied up keeping his other things (ie, those armies) under control?

Or is there other stuff going on, as Tolkien suggests in his essay?

Or is it just a rather large lack of consistency on the part of the writing? Lord knows Tolkien wrote all of this over a long period (if we factor in his essays and world-building that came AFTER the series).