Hulk vs Mordo

[Pendaran]

While I'm there and noting things, Doom's neurogas whatevers let him control the Hulk along with the rest of the world (with some exceptions) just fine.

[Pendaran]

While I'm /there/ and noting things, the reason given by Doctor Strange for why Xemnu's powers crap out on the Hulk (his mind not being developed enough for Xemnu to grab onto when he switched up from attacking the Hulk.. somehow.. physically.. with blasts from his head to zapping at his brain instead. Yeah, that sounds like what it does but those are Xemnu's own words) mostly makes Xemnu look bad, frankly.

And yet despite even that, in their second confrontation Xemnu straight up took the Hulk right the hell out mentally (I suppose there's Xemnu saying he was stronger now, but being even more fair, he was mostly referring to that he could now use his powers on inanimate objects), and he only got the chance to do his "madder stronger now I ignore this" bit because Doctor Strange later freed him from the mind control. So that itself is not so much "they always end in the Hulk rampaging" as "but for Doctor Strange, nope."

Overall, with all that said, frankly Xemnu monkeying with Strange himself comes off as more than dubious as far as reconciling with Strange's other bouts of resistance to things, when Xemnu needed, for instance, 4 weeks of hypnotic build up via a television show that they could watch and be hypnotized by to put a whammy on America's children. Even Darkseid's really sad "hacking the internets" with the anti life equasion worked better. And that thing could be undone by Flash kisses.

This is starting to feel like it's going to be one of those things with context.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Gonna say that while the Handbook's aren't anything to even consider taking as valid, some of the old ones had Hulk's "stupidity" listed as a power, and a slight explanation for how he could see ghosts and ****. So ... there's at least the foundations here ... somewhere, for a punchline.

/thispostisnottheleastbitserious

[KPhilipsen]

And on another occasion, he did far less well against it.

Fair point. A key factor to the Hulk's mental resistances seems to be how angry he is at the time. For instance at his strongest in WWH, when he resisted Xavier's telepathy, he was supposedly at his angriest. Given the scenario by the OP the Hulk is "super angry" so I'm not so sure that he is going to be completely open for Saurons mental attack. Could Sauron overpower him? Damned if I know. I don't know jack about Sauron beyond what I read in LotR. I defer to the rest of the posters here who seem to have a very deep knowledge of the lore. I'm just saying that the Hulk has had some very impressive mental resistance to telepathy feats far too consistently to be considered outliers. He's no slouch or regular joe. Especially when enraged.


One time the Hulk broke Mentallo's mental hold on him and the psychic backlash knocked out the Avengers and Juggernaut:
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The Hulk also fought off Apocalypse's War conditioning when he was made a horseman.

[Pendaran]

I'm just saying that the Hulk has had some very impressive mental resistance to telepathy feats far too consistently to be considered outliers.

Yes, and I'm saying that Xavier, based on what he is otherwise capable of as a telepath, got jobbed out, and that the Hulk has been extended controlled to taken right out by enough mind screw effects from magic to chemicals to telepathy that Sauron, if you accept that he jacked up his whole inhuman army with mind juju, which granted is in the text, should be fine here as far as doing the same. And long distance telepathy wars with Galadriel and etc.

The main problem is that as Tolkien himself seems to acknowledge, Sauron being that capable (and also Morgoth) causes some plot issues. Except that certain bits of plot would crap right out if he wasn't. So it's a thing. And the essay meant to explain it only makes it more of a thing.

[Pendaran]

One time the Hulk broke Mentallo's mental hold on him and the psychic backlash knocked out the Avengers and Juggernaut:

How long did it take for that to happen? I will grant I'm asking you this in an "I already know the answer way" like that "when did Thanos have to use trickery in Avengers Assemble 4 to mind control the Hulk?"

edit: and let's add "what were the circumstances that allowed it to happen" while we're there.

edit edit: let's just skip to the punchline. Mentallo's control is based in the creation of illusions in the mind. The Juggernaut started acting in ways contradictory to those illusions. This allowed the Hulk to realize he was being effed with. With Mentallo himself crying out "he's tearing down the illusion".

[KPhilipsen]

If I remember from reading it so long ago he was ambushed by the Juggernaut, knocked unconscious and then was under control until he became enraged at the discordance between the illusions of his father that Mentallo was conjuring and the way that Juggernaut was treating him by being encouraging. I think it was the next day story time wise? Again, it seems to be based on mental state. The Hulk is already enraged in this scenario.

Yes, it is hard to get an exact reading on where the Hulk's power level via rage is in a given showing but at his higher levels he has been consistently very resistant to mind control. No, I wouldn't consider the Xavier encounter jobbing because it wasn't a SMvFL scenario or a Black Panther arm barring Silver Surfer. He's done it on multiple occasions to multiple high level telepaths. It's canon.

As far as Sauron being powerful enough to mentally control his entire army I have to question the willingness of the participants. Is there a difference between controlling a willing or resisting mind? What about an enraged one that has mental resistance feats? Story wise from what I've read earlier in the thread Sauron doesn't have many mentally dominating mind feats against resisting opponents. I again defer to other posters. If you want to say he's a god that can mind wipe the Hulk with a wave of his hand so be it. Sauron is not my area of expertise. He didn't seem to be able to mentally dominate Gandalf or Frodo or anybody in the book that resisted but I've never read the Silmarillion so my knowledge of the spirits and gods of the Tolkien verse is essentially nil.

[Pendaran]

Yes, it is hard to get an exact reading on where the Hulk's power level via rage is in a given showing but at his higher showings he has been consistently powerful. No, I wouldn't consider the Xavier encounter jobbing because it wasn't a SMvFL scenario or a Black Panther arm barring Silver Surfer. He's done it on multiple occasions to multiple high level telepaths. It's canon.

Captain Cold has hit multiple level high level speedsters on multiple occasions. It's canon.

Your examples continue to leave out context, and don't address when a variety of effects do the Hulk up just fine. They involve people well beneath, say, Xavier, yet somehow justify the Xavier showing.

The Hulk is already enraged in this scenario.

He was enraged when Xemnu took him out. Abyss specifically goaded him to rage while in her control and somehow he only was released by when Thor zapped her.

[Pendaran]

As far as Sauron being powerful enough to mentally control his entire army I have to question the willingness of the participants. Is there a difference between controlling a willing or resisting mind?

Considering how they acted when the control went away, to the point that some of them outright committed suicide, you can question it, but the text doesn't help you at all to do so.

[KPhilipsen]

Again, I would think that the Hulk's inconsistent power levels would be attributed to his varying power/rage level. Sure he's had bad showings but as you've said Captain Cold has hit speedsters. That's not an argument against the Flash's speed. The story would be pretty boring if the Hulk *always* resisted mind control on the first panel of every comic. He does do it though. From my understanding of how feats work on this board that counts as a feat, does it not? He's done it on panel. Multiple times.

[Pendaran]

Again, I would think that the Hulk's inconsistent power levels would be attributed to his varying power/rage level. Sure he's had bad showings but as you've said Captain Cold has hit speedsters. The story would be pretty boring if the Hulk *always* resisted mind control on the first panel of every comic. He does do it though. From my understanding of how feats work on this board that counts as a feat, does it not? He's done it on panel. Multiple times.

Captain Cold has hit Flashes on panel. Multiple times. Why can't Captain Cold legitimately hit the Flash but the Hulk can legitimately resist Xavier? You're now trying to claim every time the Hulk's mind has been screwed with is a bad showing for the Hulk? That the Hulk has been weaker whenever that's happened? That's certainly very interesting.

[KPhilipsen]

Well I'm saying that the Hulk's power level and showings have varied quite a lot as have Sauron's apparently. Where do you set his power levels? A sliding power level with rage is a difficult thing to pinpoint.

I would argue that the Hulk can legitimately resist Xavier because he has resisted other high level telepath's. Xemnu, Thanos, Apocalypse. Has Captain Cold hit other speeders consistently? Wouldn't that be a feat for Captain Cold? I don't really read the Flash so not sure how he works. Isn't he a meta human now?

Again, I'm not really understanding what is counting as a feat here. Why are all the Hulk's mental resistance feats to be discarded?

[Pendaran]

To sum up: You give a bunch of examples of people not remotely on the scale of Charles Xavier being resisted by the Hulk as your justification for the Hulk resisting the telepathy of a planetary scale telepath who has thrown billions of minds together to ram into a guy, dealt with what are functionally collected embodiements of hate, and a long laundry list of other things. Several of your examples at that come out poorly of themselves when viewed in full context.

[Pendaran]

I would argue that the Hulk can legitimately resist Xavier because he has resisted other high level telepath's. Xemnu, Thanos, Xavier.

Issue number for the Hulk resisting Thanos' telepathy.

Xemnu

A guy who needed a month and for his hypno eyes to be broadcasted on tv to control America's children is certainly anywhere Charles Xavier (he is not anywhere near him)

Xavier.

You just argued that the Hulk can resist Xavier's telepathy because he can resist Xavier's telepathy.

[Sharpandpointies]

Of course not - the way you talk about the guy all the time, it's like he stole your lunch money when you were both kids.*

5...4...3...

He probably used it to buy more ink or something. I'm down with that. Lord of the Rings isn't my favourite series, but I like it. And the Silmarillion is fantastic.

* Apologies in advance for the impending age jokes.

Dear big, are you not aware that Tolkien was merely some mewling cub when Sharp's age was beyond remembrance?

Yeah, that worked out about as expected. :(