Hulk vs Mordo

[KPhilipsen]

So what you're saying is that the Hulk has no feats for mental resistance. None. Regular human resistance level. Am I correct in stating your position?

If you hand wave Thanos as a clone, Xemnu as a scrub and Strange as a cripple what about Mentallo, the Ringleader, Prof Phobos, Manbeast and The Agents of Atlas? They're not on the same tier but they are telepaths. Any resistance?

[Pendaran]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Sauron doesn't seem to have feats of direct mind domination. He didn't dominate Galadriel. Or Saruman. Or Gandalf. Or even bloody Pippin! He mind controlled some orcs that were genetically engineered to serve him. I just don't see his mental domination feats as being that overpowering. Is Saurons influence corrupting and insidious? Sure. Could he mind control an enraged Hulk forcefully? Doesn't seem to me that he could. Again, if Sauron is some supreme badass in the Silmarillion I have no way of knowing about it. Let me know what his feats are because controlling an orc army and fighting an elf to a stalemate all seem decidedly lower tier than the telepaths that inhabit the Marvel universe that the Hulk runs into regularly.

Once again, the text presents his army as being mind controlled, and Galadriel having to fight him off from her head.

Let me know what his feats are because controlling an orc army

Controlling tens of thousands of dudes for an extended period while doing other things mentally with various other people, direct or otherwise? No, that's pretty good unless the standard actually is Charles Xavier, which despite your saying move on from it, basically looks like your argument is that planetary scale telepathy and below should bounce unless the Hulk is somehow tricked or at low ebb. Which, just doesn't bear out with things that have done up the Hulk.

[Pendaran]

So what you're saying is that the Hulk has no feats for mental resistance. None. Regular human resistance level. Am I correct in stating your position?

He certainly has nothing to justify the Xavier showing, nor that arguing that a guy who can control tens of thousands of dudes while having telepathy fights with other people and various other sundry shouldn't be able to monkey with his head, especially not based on the feats you've presented, involving either, at this point, things beneath such things, details being left out, showings being ignored, and the context of the showing itself and the capacity shown on other ocassions of other characters involved seeming optional. You're the one saying that has to mean any telepath of any kind can do him over.

[Pendaran]

Do Strange's mental powers require the use of his hands? I took the situation to be that the Hulk forced Strange out. Strange didn't need the use of his hands to break into the Hulk's mind at the end of the issue when the Hulk was distracted by the adamantium missile barrage. Why not? They were still broken.

You've now advanced that a guy in high amounts of pain who just got his hands broken moments ago clearly mustered up such significant resistance to being forced out of the Hulk's head, that this counts as a high end mental resistance feat for the Hulk.

(we're not even touching the somehow breaking Strange's hands spiritually broke them physically, but let's just go with the Hulk has sometimes throughout the decades shown weird spiritual interaction powers so why not for the moment).

[Pendaran]

So what you're saying is that the Hulk has no feats for mental resistance. None. Regular human resistance level. Am I correct in stating your position?

If you hand wave Thanos as a clone, Xemnu as a scrub and Strange as a cripple what about Mentallo, the Ringleader, Prof Phobos, Manbeast and The Agents of Atlas? They're not on the same tier but they are telepaths. Any resistance?

No, the argument you're making is that unless the Hulk can bounce high end telepathy, it has to mean that the Hulk can't resist mind control at all.

Hulk have some mind control resistance? Sure. To the scale you want to claim? Not based on anything you've provided.

[KPhilipsen]

No, I'm saying that his hands being crushed in the astral plane was a problem no question but Strange had recovered, at least a little, over the issue. He wasn't debilitated or in unbearable agony the entire time. Even then he wasn't able to break back in until the Hulk was injured. He battled the Hulk the entire issue with broken hands. He wasn't curled up on the floor.

[Pendaran]

No, I'm saying that his hands being crushed in the astral plane was a problem no question but Strange had recovered, at least a little, over the issue. He wasn't debilitated or in unbearable agony the entire time. Even then he wasn't able to break back in until the Hulk was injured. He battled the Hulk the entire issue with broken hands. He wasn't curled up on the floor.

When, post being maimed, did Strange try to telepathically monkey with the Hulk? Issue number?

[KPhilipsen]

By all means, WWH is admittedly the highest end of the Hulk's power levels. He's not always immune to telepathy but he certainly is resistant.

Also why doesn't your argument that War Hulk cooperating with Apocalypse makes it a low level telepathy feat not work the same for Sauron and the orcs? Why are you assuming the orcs are resisting? Or that Sauron is directly controlling every individual orc mind at once? They all seemed relatively autonomous. Had names, got into fights. They didn't seem like blank drones.

[KPhilipsen]

That very issue I thought. Maybe the next at most. The one where Gen Ross bombards the Hulk with the adamantium shrapnel bombs. He was trying the whole time, mentioned that Bruce wasn't letting him in and then when the Hulk was injured he managed it. I've got to go back and re-read WWH...

[Pendaran]

Why are you assuming the orcs are resisting? Or that Sauron is directly controlling every individual orc mind at once? They all seemed relatively autonomous. Had names, got into fights. They didn't seem like blank drones.

Why would him making them want to fight for him have to make them blank drones? Moondragon once enslaved an entire planet. They were all otherwise relatively autonomous, could walks around and talk to people, had names, did ****, and that was on crazy scale. That's just.. fiction. Any number of mind controlled people and things operate under mind control without having to be blank drones to it. They have all the same a particular master they now regard as their master, or impulse they obey. This reads like you trying to create a new standard to not have to deal with the problems in the evidence you keep presenting.

What shows they weren't willing? The moment his control went away, they in large numbers turned on themselves, they fled, they committed suicide rather than keep going at the people who at minimum represented all the traditional enemies of their monstery sorts.

[KPhilipsen]

Don't you think there is a difference between having influence over a large body of people and having one individual or a handful obey your commands? Is it a different level of mind control when Darkseid literally becomes all human minds on Earth? I guess what I'm saying is what is the difference in your scenario between mass mind control and localized if only a few minds are directly dominated at any one time? The orcs certainly fought and killed their own in great number. They didn't seem to act towards a common goal. Sauron didn't seem to micromanage. Could he just dictate one command to all the orcs at one time or take direct control? In your scenario it's almost like they're not being controlled but in a receptive state to be.

To be fair the orcs were always fighting each other, they're orcs. They were doing that while his control was in effect too.

[Pendaran]

That very issue I thought. Maybe the next at most. The one where Gen Ross bombards the Hulk with the adamantium shrapnel bombs. He was trying the whole time, mentioned that Bruce wasn't letting him in and then when the Hulk was injured he managed it. I've got to go back and re-read WWH...

I'm going to again skip ahead and note that I mostly ask these sorts things out of some.. I dunno, hope that maybe you read some tie in issue I didn't, or some other comic that retcons things, or something otherwise. Because no. Like several other things here. That's not what happened.

In WWH 2, Strange tried to reach the Hulk/Bruce Banner's mind and soul. The Hulk kept him out.

Then, Strange himself specifically noted in WWH 3 that the spell he was doing required the Hulk to let him in, in order to try and stop him without killing him. That is Strange, saying he's trying, you know, less than full force and wants the Hulk to let him in. Because the Hulk wouldn't let him in, he couldn't get in. He was not trying to force his way in. He was in fact specifically trying to do the opposite. And thus the spell failed and Strange was thrown back because /those were the terms of the spell/. Strange was not at this point injured in any way. Then, because the Hulk wasn't letting him in, he instead went in when he was distracted by Ross' attack and tried to peacefully talk things out, once again noting he was going at the Hulk at vastly less than the full force he could be. Then the Hulk, when Strange offered him his hands, broke Strange's hands such that Strange's hands broke in the real world and he was back in his own body with feedback from the pain.

He did not after that try to get in the Hulk's head.

When Strange himself is specifically at his own word not trying as hard as he could be, when he is trying to reach a peaceful resolution, when the very spell he is using is only normally even able to work if the other person wants it to, and thus when he finally got in, he was using his own spell imperfectly, it's a non feat for everyone.

[Pendaran]

Don't you think there is a difference between having influence over a large body of people and having one individual or a handful obey your commands? Is it a different level of mind control when Darkseid literally becomes all human minds on Earth? I guess what I'm saying is what is the difference in your scenario between mass mind control and localized if only a few minds are directly dominated at any one time? The orcs certainly fought and killed their own in great number. They didn't seem to act towards a common goal. Sauron didn't seem to micromanage. Could he just dictate one command to all the orcs at one time or take direct control? In your scenario it's almost like they're not being controlled but in a receptive state to be.

To be fair the orcs were always fighting each other, they're orcs. They were doing that while his control was in effect too.

The text provided for you in this thread does not intersect with what you are trying to advance. It refers to them all as spell enslaved. Sauron's control is likened unto a thing that holds them all in sway. Those are the words.

You could argue, say, that the showing is not valid because of what it would mean for the plot, and as several people have advanced, you might have a case there. But then again, there are also reason why it would be valid. The showing itself is basically clearly what it is. The arguable thing is the validity of it. I myself.. it's too much a part of the narrative of the LOTR to throw out, but then Tolkien wrote that essay that makes everything a mishmash. So it's a thing.

What you are doing, is something else.

The orcs certainly fought and killed their own in great number.

And yet when their master gave them commands, they obeyed and fought for him in huge hosts. And without that control, did what they did.

[KPhilipsen]

Right. "spell enslaved". Which means that they will obey verbal commands presented in person? Obey mental commands when holding one of Saurons artifacts? Telepathically communicate with Sauron and accept commands? Be able to act as a host for Sauron to direct as he will? What exactly is Sauron doing? Is he like Darkseid and able to take mental control of everybody? I'm serious. As I've said I'm not an expert on Sauron. His powers in LotR seemed very ill defined.

[Pendaran]

Right. "spell enslaved". Which means that they will obey verbal commands presented in person? Obey mental commands when holding one of Saurons artifacts? Telepathically communicate with Sauron and accept commands? Be able to act as a host for Sauron to direct as he will? What exactly is Sauron doing? Is he like Darkseid and able to take mental control of everybody?

He is willing a monstrous horde of large numbers to serve him and fight some other dudes when they don't want to, such that while it is ongoing, they think they want to serve him and fight those dudes. To the point that when he isn't willing them to do that, they do the opposite as hard as they possibly can. This doesn't require anything more to be impressive than "go fight these guys" and them not being able to choose option not fight these guys for it to be extremely impressive for what it would be. The fine details beyond that frankly don't really matter and come off as looking for a way to ignore a performance in terms of not acknowledging what happened in it, instead of what its wider issues might be.

Why exactly does it matter beyond "They didn't want to do a thing. He made them all do a thing. They are described, as all being made to do a thing."? What particularly do you feel you can manage to accomplish by it when the text presents them as all under the guy's sway with regards the fight?

You know what would be something? Text showing they in fact weren't, despite what this text says.

You know what would be something else? Noting how Sauron being this powerful makes various ways the plot went a problem, such that the author himself admitted he set up a bit of a mess with that.

This? This doesn't really have much to do, with much.

Telepathically communicate with Sauron and accept commands?

I'm not sure how you can read that text and try to present "he's commanding them willingly and they're accepting" as some kind of possible option.