Page 132 of 133 FirstFirst ... 3282122128129130131132133 LastLast
Results 1,966 to 1,980 of 1981
  1. #1966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby Quartz Diamond View Post
    From what I've seen so far, people highly praise Matt Fraction's Hawkeye run and I even see some go as far as saying it's the best and quintessential Hawkeye run. I highly disagree of them. While I enjoyed some elements of Fraction's run, I feel that it reinvented Clint's character - for the worse. It changed his characterisation into this goofball who’s not taken seriously and simply exists to get some laughs at the expense of himself when he’s not in the spotlight. Such a far cry from the old school Clint Barton who’s cocky, brash, very serious about his Avengers title and uses his wits and skills to extricate himself out of any difficult situation. He usually does not think about what he should’ve done to not land himself in the situation, he comes up with solutions to get himself out of it because there’s no use crying over split milk. He's proud of his marksman skills and he delivers them. Thompson, Kott and Lemire took inspiration from Fraction's run and further mishandled his character. They made him into some bumbling and incompetent fool that sometimes makes you wonder 'how did he became an Avenger/ SHIELD agent again'? I also don't really like how him being a 'human disaster and failboat' is so celebrated to be honest.
    Fraction's Hawkeye (which I loved) took a lot from DC's Bwah-hah-hah JLI. The main differnce is that the JLI had stories where they did big stuff and despite an irreverence portrayed them as heroes who do come through in the clutch. Fraction's Hawkeye had Clint coming through at the end, but still in a relatively minor situation. I wonder if the opinions of those who didn't like Fraction's take would have been different had there been some bigger threat that was defeated.

  2. #1967
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    People defending their character being wrecked afer 40+ years being a hero... who'd think that'd ever happen?
    Exactly. People forget these characters are supposed to be heroes - protagonists in wish-fulfilment stories. Wanda got used to create drama and heroic opportunities for OTHER heroes, not her; basically Team Wanda took one for the fanbases of other heroes so their heroes could look heroic. It's not fair to punish the character, and therefore her fanbase, for getting the crap role in the story that nobody else wanted. This kind of thing happens too much - character X has to do something mad, bad, or stupid so that characters Y & Z can have drama and then shine. It sucks for the fanbase of character X, and their reward for taking one for the team is for the fanbases of Y & Z to scream for character X's blood. In this case Wanda's fanbase really deserves at least a decade of two of her being a hero as intended. It's just not fair otherwise.

    And I say all that as someone who isn't a particular fan of the Scarlet Witch.

  3. #1968
    Spectacular Member Ruby Quartz Diamond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Fraction's Hawkeye (which I loved) took a lot from DC's Bwah-hah-hah JLI. The main differnce is that the JLI had stories where they did big stuff and despite an irreverence portrayed them as heroes who do come through in the clutch. Fraction's Hawkeye had Clint coming through at the end, but still in a relatively minor situation. I wonder if the opinions of those who didn't like Fraction's take would have been different had there been some bigger threat that was defeated.
    Yeah the villains in Fraction's Hawkeye don't really feel major. Crossfire from the 1984 Hawkeye solo series felt like a much bigger threat tbh.

  4. #1969
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    Exactly. People forget these characters are supposed to be heroes - protagonists in wish-fulfilment stories. Wanda got used to create drama and heroic opportunities for OTHER heroes, not her; basically Team Wanda took one for the fanbases of other heroes so their heroes could look heroic. It's not fair to punish the character, and therefore her fanbase, for getting the crap role in the story that nobody else wanted. This kind of thing happens too much - character X has to do something mad, bad, or stupid so that characters Y & Z can have drama and then shine. It sucks for the fanbase of character X, and their reward for taking one for the team is for the fanbases of Y & Z to scream for character X's blood. In this case Wanda's fanbase really deserves at least a decade of two of her being a hero as intended. It's just not fair otherwise.

    And I say all that as someone who isn't a particular fan of the Scarlet Witch.
    yes but that be so if wanda wasnt then written to be completly obnoxious and toxic towards mutants ever since childrens crusade, now she's an important lore piece for far more important and interesting characters and their stories, a shame but it is what it is!

    Had she joined the x-men or at the very least not being written as the saintly and sad victim that somehow manages to become the hero in the conclusion of her victim's story, as said victims become the villains.

    And then uncanny avengers, the grudge still lasts because it was entire years of stories with hundreds of issues that people read and re-read, and each time we get the saga of "wanda commits genocide, yet her victims are the assholes for hating her" and she returns, her children back her avenger status that grants her total immunanity and entitlemente and immense arrogance, as she acts like genocide is just small incovinience mutants need to get over, as she rolls her eyes condescendingly at the ANOYANCE of the consequences of her actions.
    "Omg haven't you ever commited genocide? im an avenger again so it doesn't matter what stinky mutants think, so cry harder" but in the next panels she's crying on some dude chest.


    Wanda is a horrid character that deserves it, sorry if she was worth more than that writers would use her but not even an execptional series starting the phase 4 of the mcu manages to make people care.
    Last edited by Ferro; 01-24-2021 at 05:12 AM.

  5. #1970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    yes but that be so if wanda wasnt then written to be completly obnoxious and toxic towards mutants ever since childrens crusade, now she's an important lore piece for far more important and interesting characters and their stories, a shame but it is what it is!

    Had she joined the x-men or at the very least not being written as the saintly and sad victim that somehow manages to become the hero in the conclusion of her victim's story, as said victims become the villains.

    And then uncanny avengers, the grudge still lasts because it was entire years of stories with hundreds of issues that people read and re-read, and each time we get the saga of "wanda commits genocide, yet her victims are the assholes for hating her" and she returns, her children back her avenger status that grants her total immunanity and entitlemente and immense arrogance, as she acts like genocide is just small incovinience mutants need to get over, as she rolls her eyes condescendingly at the ANOYANCE of the consequences of her actions.
    "Omg haven't you ever commited genocide? im an avenger again so it doesn't matter what stinky mutants think, so cry harder" but in the next panels she's crying on some dude chest.


    Wanda is a horrid character that deserves it, sorry if she was worth more than that writers would use her but not even an execptional series starting the phase 4 of the mcu manages to make people care.
    Wanda doesn’t feel like what she did is a small inconvenience. Even her foolish act in Empyre shows it still weighs her down and she hates herself for it. Not every mutant has to forgive and I don’t expect them to cause they have every right to. Though to deny the fact that she was unstable and the other series of events that led up to Decimation is, in simple words, not right.

  6. #1971
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Covetous_One View Post
    Wanda doesn’t feel like what she did is a small inconvenience. Even her foolish act in Empyre shows it still weighs her down and she hates herself for it. Not every mutant has to forgive and I don’t expect them to cause they have every right to. Though to deny the fact that she was unstable and the other series of events that led up to Decimation is, in simple words, not right.
    read AvX, uncanny avengers, all new x-factor and whenever she showed up in an x-men title like in all new x-men vol 1, she was very much written in that way after avengers vs x-men.
    As arrogant, condescending, self-righteous, holier than thou, blantlty ignorant of mutant issues in the worst way possible with a "get over it" hostility that made her extremely unlikeable.

    For many x-men fans that was her "Return" after being gone from the comics for 7 years, as the x-title's stories were filled with darkness born from her actions, only for her redemption being writen pretty much to spite the x-men (and just badly written, children's crusade fails miserably at what it tries to do).
    Then she gets to be the co-protagonist of avengers vs x-men as the victims of her actions are driven as the villains.
    After that horrid event she goes to act in the ways I described above, Uncanny Avengers aka the unity team was promoted as a 50/50 avengers and x-men title to reunite the two teams.
    It failed miserably at it.

    All these components created said grudge , that sure seems petty if you're exclusivly a fan of the scarlet witch, but once you read (or in my case re-read recently) that time period it's a very very long period of time that's concluded in the worst way possible, but somehow it only gets worse.
    There was never a proper conclusion to that story written by the x-office FOR the x-men and its readers, just one that managed to elevate the avengers at the cost of the x-men.
    Last edited by Ferro; 01-24-2021 at 06:03 AM.

  7. #1972
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    1,665

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby Quartz Diamond View Post
    Yeah the villains in Fraction's Hawkeye don't really feel major. Crossfire from the 1984 Hawkeye solo series felt like a much bigger threat tbh.
    The Tracksuit Draculas were great...not all bad guys have to me major threats.

  8. #1973

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    read AvX, uncanny avengers, all new x-factor and whenever she showed up in an x-men title like in all new x-men vol 1, she was very much written in that way after avengers vs x-men.
    As arrogant, condescending, self-righteous, holier than thou, blantlty ignorant of mutant issues in the worst way possible with a "get over it" hostility that made her extremely unlikeable.

    For many x-men fans that was her "Return" after being gone from the comics for 7 years, as the x-title's stories were filled with darkness born from her actions, only for her redemption being writen pretty much to spite the x-men (and just badly written, children's crusade fails miserably at what it tries to do).
    Then she gets to be the co-protagonist of avengers vs x-men as the victims of her actions are driven as the villains.
    After that horrid event she goes to act in the ways I described above, Uncanny Avengers aka the unity team was promoted as a 50/50 avengers and x-men title to reunite the two teams.
    It failed miserably at it.

    All these components created said grudge , that sure seems petty if you're exclusivly a fan of the scarlet witch, but once you read (or in my case re-read recently) that time period it's a very very long period of time that's concluded in the worst way possible, but somehow it only gets worse.
    There was never a proper conclusion to that story written by the x-office FOR the x-men and its readers, just one that managed to elevate the avengers at the cost of the x-men.
    I did read them and from my observation her arrogance is one of self hatred and that she wanted rogue to hate her cause she still sees herself as a murder. In the panel when Jean read her mind Wanda constantly sees herself as an unforgivable monster. I like X-Men characters such as my top favorite mutant will always be Storm. Yes I maybe biased but I’m not going to just say there weren’t other factors that led to a character to do a horrific act

  9. #1974
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Covetous_One View Post
    I did read them and from my observation her arrogance is one of self hatred and that she wanted rogue to hate her cause she still sees herself as a murder. In the panel when Jean read her mind Wanda constantly sees herself as an unforgivable monster. I like X-Men characters such as my top favorite mutant will always be Storm. Yes I maybe biased but I’m not going to just say there weren’t other factors that led to a character to do a horrific act
    and thats fine, but Im explaining the prespective behind said grudge

  10. #1975
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,423

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    yes but that be so if wanda wasnt then written to be completly obnoxious and toxic towards mutants ever since childrens crusade, now she's an important lore piece for far more important and interesting characters and their stories, a shame but it is what it is!

    Had she joined the x-men or at the very least not being written as the saintly and sad victim that somehow manages to become the hero in the conclusion of her victim's story, as said victims become the villains.

    And then uncanny avengers, the grudge still lasts because it was entire years of stories with hundreds of issues that people read and re-read, and each time we get the saga of "wanda commits genocide, yet her victims are the assholes for hating her" and she returns, her children back her avenger status that grants her total immunanity and entitlemente and immense arrogance, as she acts like genocide is just small incovinience mutants need to get over, as she rolls her eyes condescendingly at the ANOYANCE of the consequences of her actions.
    "Omg haven't you ever commited genocide? im an avenger again so it doesn't matter what stinky mutants think, so cry harder" but in the next panels she's crying on some dude chest.


    Wanda is a horrid character that deserves it, sorry if she was worth more than that writers would use her but not even an execptional series starting the phase 4 of the mcu manages to make people care.
    Heroes become popular by being written sympathetically and being shown doing cool and powerful things. Wanda is interesting, at least potentially - she's got an interesting background, and she has potentially interesting powers. What she doesn't have is a lot of stories where she gets to be centre-stage being a hero, she doesn't have a memorable rogue's gallery, and she has a power-set which is a bit of a do-anything power, which writers often find tricky to use. However back before Byrne turned her into a villain she had a popular enough dynamic with the Vision to get two limited series. She was important enough to make it into the MCU, and now she has a tv series... her importance and popularity will only be rising with the mainstream public. Really, all the writers have to do is stop writing her as a plot-dynamic rather than a hero, and she'll gain popularity in the comics.

    Years ago on the forum I remember Rogue's fan-base mocking Carol Danvers', pointing out that Rogue became one of Marvel's top female heroes using Carol's power-set whist Carol languished in obscurity - that's changed now. Marvel has pushed and pushed Carol, stopped writing her as unsympathetic and weak and kept her doing heroic feats, and now she's got a movie and merchandise and things are going up for her.

    Wanda is a heroic character that has been abused by writers to push other heroes, and the trouble is that when you abuse a hero, you are effectively punishing their fan-base. Insisting that the character be further punished punishes the fan-base even more. It just seems wrong to me. I doubt many Wanda fans like the post-Byrne WCA Scarlet Witch stories, they'd probably be happy to have it revealed that the SW that did all those awful things wasn't the real Wanda, just as Jean Grey fans got a get-out-of-jail-free card for the Phoenix Saga. It's comics, it can be done pretty easily if people wanted it.

  11. #1976
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    2,437

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    Wanda is a heroic character that has been abused by writers to push other heroes….
    Wanda never stops being heroic to me, she went through a lot and lost it.

    What was poorly done were the aftermaths: being at the origin of such event has put Wanda to the fore and she was almost immediately disregarded afterwards, her point of view being denied.

  12. #1977
    Spectacular Member Ruby Quartz Diamond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    The Tracksuit Draculas were great...not all bad guys have to me major threats.
    That's your opinion.

  13. #1978
    Incredible Member davetvs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    566

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    People defending their character being wrecked afer 40+ years being a hero... who'd think that'd ever happen?

    I don't think she's been wrecked at all tbh, just victim to bad writing which happens to all characters at some point. The X-Men is my franchise of choice but I love Wanda, and it's true that a lot of the fans who can't let Decimation go look incredibly hypocritical when the X-Men have taken in the likes of Wolverine, Emma Frost, Namor, Magneto, Apocalypse, Mystique, Exodus, Frenzy, etc.

    I don't really like the "Pretender" stuff either because I prefer the Maximoffs as Magneto's kids, and Wanda fits nicely into the HoX storyline of Moira/Charles/Erik conspiring to have reality warping children. I hope by the time Hickman is done he's re-established Magneto as their father.

    My unpopular opinion is that while Marvel (and comics in general) do need to stop pandering to the lowest common denominator AKA social injustice warriors, they barely understand how to write "diverse" characters properly, with rare exceptions. Captain Marvel's books are almost always terrible, I tried to read one and she was fighting stereotypical male chauvinist villains who were telling her to get back into the kitchen, or some other such nonsense. That's not how you write a feminist hero in 2021. It's hamfisted and will turn people off.
    Last edited by davetvs; 01-24-2021 at 08:28 AM.

  14. #1979
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Panic View Post
    Heroes become popular by being written sympathetically and being shown doing cool and powerful things. Wanda is interesting, at least potentially - she's got an interesting background, and she has potentially interesting powers. What she doesn't have is a lot of stories where she gets to be centre-stage being a hero, she doesn't have a memorable rogue's gallery, and she has a power-set which is a bit of a do-anything power, which writers often find tricky to use. However back before Byrne turned her into a villain she had a popular enough dynamic with the Vision to get two limited series. She was important enough to make it into the MCU, and now she has a tv series... her importance and popularity will only be rising with the mainstream public. Really, all the writers have to do is stop writing her as a plot-dynamic rather than a hero, and she'll gain popularity in the comics.

    Years ago on the forum I remember Rogue's fan-base mocking Carol Danvers', pointing out that Rogue became one of Marvel's top female heroes using Carol's power-set whist Carol languished in obscurity - that's changed now. Marvel has pushed and pushed Carol, stopped writing her as unsympathetic and weak and kept her doing heroic feats, and now she's got a movie and merchandise and things are going up for her.

    Wanda is a heroic character that has been abused by writers to push other heroes, and the trouble is that when you abuse a hero, you are effectively punishing their fan-base. Insisting that the character be further punished punishes the fan-base even more. It just seems wrong to me. I doubt many Wanda fans like the post-Byrne WCA Scarlet Witch stories, they'd probably be happy to have it revealed that the SW that did all those awful things wasn't the real Wanda, just as Jean Grey fans got a get-out-of-jail-free card for the Phoenix Saga. It's comics, it can be done pretty easily if people wanted it.
    probably won't happen writers don't care about her

  15. #1980
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    26,758

    Default

    I'll never understand people who say they like comic Hawkeye yet bash MCU Tony for being sexist, insensitive jackass. Comic Hawkeye is that up to eleven.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •