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  1. #2356
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    Keep the original characters active in roles but also establish some legacies for them in order to create spin-offs and thus make more money and appeal to different people. Tokusatsu does this all the time.
    Toku uses live-action actors. They can't pretend the way cartoons and comics do.

  2. #2357
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Toku uses live-action actors. They can't pretend the way cartoons and comics do.
    I wasn't even comparing live-action..just the endless amount of connected heroes. Tokusatsu fans don't stop watching the franchise because a new character takes up the mantle.

  3. #2358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    You make a lot sense, sir. I agree.



    Don't think that's a good exemple. First, there are a lot of people who care about Alan and Jay, and recently they have been seen in other media, which means that it not just die-hard fans who know about them. Second, I don't think the Golden Age/Silver Age transition can be comparable to what is/may be happening now. Alan, Jay, Al, Carter, Shiera, etc... were out of the spotlight for about a decade, and their replacements all basically had different motivations, backgrounds, sometimes even powers (Alan mystical lantern, Hal the whole scientific alien corps. Al was a short guy with a powerful punch, Ray could shrink, Carter and Shiera the reincarnation angle, Katar and Shayera alien cops...). Plus, Wally West is the exception that proves the rule.
    Replacements/legacies nowadays are basically the same hero (minus a great deal of the initial motivation), but with a different gender, etnicity, etc... Plus, no transition period involved. Opposite to what they tried to do in the late 50's, when they were trying to recapture an audience that had already left (that they had already lost anyway), and bring in new interest, nowadays you are putting in jeopardy the audience you have (by telling them that the character they know and love is not good enough, and that they are going to be given something better, which, most of the times, is not), in hopes of bringing in a crowd that has not shown much interest in the medium before (maybe for not feeling represented, I don't know). IMHO, a risky move, but in big business it doesn't pay much to play it safe. Of course, plenty of arguements could be made that it's not just risky, it's dumb. I'll leave that decision to each one of you. Just to be clear, I'm not against replacements, but I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. For exemple, if you have two Captain Americas, two Spider-Men, two Black Panthers, two Supermen, two Batman, etc... in my opinion, you have none of these characters. Characters should be unique, not interchangeble (that can be my controversial opinion for the day).
    Odd that so much DC is being discussed in a Marvel forum.

    Peace
    I don't think that Marvel/DC are telling fans that the older heroes aren't good enough and that new heroes are better. I think it's usually either them trying to cash in on the popularity of said hero or trying to hang on to trademarks ( when it's B or C-List characters).

  4. #2359
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I don't think that Marvel/DC are telling fans that the older heroes aren't good enough and that new heroes are better. I think it's usually either them trying to cash in on the popularity of said hero or trying to hang on to trademarks ( when it's B or C-List characters).
    Is kind of like that. Sometimes you have to forcefully piggyback on a more well known thing, or you won't get the attention you need to survive in the hard-core environment that is comic industry, expecially right now where or you succeed fast or you get axed without mercy
    (Thing that is getting very common sight in manga. Coll series. But very original and hard to get following...axed after 10 numbers). Is dog eat dog out of there. Having an hopefully base to start with(either fan of the character/franchise/genre or followers of the author) do help.
    The insurgency of the fact that people can consume a product out of HATE (at least at first) lead to certain aberrant behaviour from people in the marketing as well as Social media PR nightmares( albeit in second case is helped from the fact that not every person in entertainment and artistic field is really good at people skill...otherwise they would not need another medium to express themselves...actor need a script, artist a canvas, writer grammar...)

  5. #2360
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I don't think that Marvel/DC are telling fans that the older heroes aren't good enough and that new heroes are better. I think it's usually either them trying to cash in on the popularity of said hero or trying to hang on to trademarks ( when it's B or C-List characters).
    However, intently, or by pure ineptitude, they eventually get around to HAVING to show that the new guy is boss by showing the old guy in an unfair light in someway (throwing in Hawkeye as an exemple. Do I really need to say how goofy and incompetent current day Hawkguy has absolutely nothing to do with former WCA and Thunderbolts leader, all around rebel guy, Hawkeye? While Kate can never do wrong). Or the new guy is shown as too perfect, when the OG is, as are most characters created before the 2000's, flawed in some way (Maybe Captain "Carol" Marvel, can be an exemple here, sine most of the flaws she had as Ms Marvel/Warbird, were, as far as I know, never mentioned again, and she's just this kickass, perfect, unbeatable warrior) Or the new guy didn't work as hard as the OG to earn his stripes (Maybe Iron Heart here, who, as I understand, stole her first armor, something that is convineantly widely ignored). Perhaps I should have included "essentially" in my statement. "nowadays you are putting in jeopardy the audience you have (by "essentially" telling them that the character they know and love is not good enough, and that they are going to be given something better, which, most of the times, is not)". I do have to be honest here and say that these perceptions are a few yaers old, since they've pushed me away from reading most new material with these practises. Nowadays, I mostly read collected old stuff.

    Peace

  6. #2361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    However, intently, or by pure ineptitude, they eventually get around to HAVING to show that the new guy is boss by showing the old guy in an unfair light in someway (throwing in Hawkeye as an exemple. Do I really need to say how goofy and incompetent current day Hawkguy has absolutely nothing to do with former WCA and Thunderbolts leader, all around rebel guy, Hawkeye? While Kate can never do wrong). Or the new guy is shown as too perfect, when the OG is, as are most characters created before the 2000's, flawed in some way (Maybe Captain "Carol" Marvel, can be an exemple here, sine most of the flaws she had as Ms Marvel/Warbird, were, as far as I know, never mentioned again, and she's just this kickass, perfect, unbeatable warrior) Or the new guy didn't work as hard as the OG to earn his stripes (Maybe Iron Heart here, who, as I understand, stole her first armor, something that is convineantly widely ignored). Perhaps I should have included "essentially" in my statement. "nowadays you are putting in jeopardy the audience you have (by "essentially" telling them that the character they know and love is not good enough, and that they are going to be given something better, which, most of the times, is not)". I do have to be honest here and say that these perceptions are a few yaers old, since they've pushed me away from reading most new material with these practises. Nowadays, I mostly read collected old stuff.

    Peace
    That's fair. However, while it's true that Matt Fraction kinda regressed Clint a bit, Kate was not portrayed as perfect. And I don't think that Carol Danvers is presented as perfect. Ironheart stealing her first armor...well, that's a flaw right? That's what we want? But more seriously, I do think it's fine to be not attracted to some of the newer characters. We all have our own personal tastes. People shouldn't be made to feel bad for not being into the new hip thing whatever it may be.

  7. #2362
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    That's fair. However, while it's true that Matt Fraction kinda regressed Clint a bit, Kate was not portrayed as perfect.
    I feel like Clint's regression is part of a different problem, in previous established *competent* and respected heroes suddenly becoming loser-y dumbasses who bumble into more trouble than they start.

    It's happened to Clint. It's happened to Scott Lang. It's currently happening to Dane Whitman. All have been capable heroes, taken seriously by their fellow heroes, some even up to serving as team leaders. And now they are all kind of hapless man-children who need a teen girl to babysit them and show them how it's done.

    I feel like, if Hank Pym had returned while Nadia was a fresh face and had her own series, he would have gotten exactly this treatment, and been the Homer to her Lisa Simpson.

  8. #2363
    Mighty Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    The legacy characters allows fans to experience the power set, initial premise, and themes of the hero through the lens of a more relatable (to some) or just a different character. I am not a big fantasy reader, Thor has never really interested me. A woman with cancer taking on the name of Thor to fight on earth sounds much more interesting to me. Encouraging these kinds of ventures in comics is how you get new fans of the characters.
    Exactly. I never read a Thor solo comic in my life until Jane Thor. Read that because it was more interesting to me, liked it, and kept reading Thor afterward. Same with Miles as Spider-Man; I didn't actively keep up with Peter's books until Miles crossed over into 616.

  9. #2364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I feel like Clint's regression is part of a different problem, in previous established *competent* and respected heroes suddenly becoming loser-y dumbasses who bumble into more trouble than they start.

    It's happened to Clint. It's happened to Scott Lang. It's currently happening to Dane Whitman. All have been capable heroes, taken seriously by their fellow heroes, some even up to serving as team leaders. And now they are all kind of hapless man-children who need a teen girl to babysit them and show them how it's done.

    I feel like, if Hank Pym had returned while Nadia was a fresh face and had her own series, he would have gotten exactly this treatment, and been the Homer to her Lisa Simpson.
    With Clint I think it was a case of Fraction probably writing a little bit of his own experiences into the character. It's funny cuz when Secret Avengers first came out it was when Fraction/Aja book was around and in SA Clint was leading a team on serious missions, but in the solo he was having troubles with low level thugs. With Scott I think it's movie influenced. Just like Starlord's personality went from being weary vet of a hundred adventures to being a cocky young dude. I don't think Hank would have been portrayed as a man-child, but I do think they would have made him the old man who has to sit out when the action starts.

  10. #2365
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Even with the Multiverse, I doubt the movies would go there
    I said the Loki tv show, though.

  11. #2366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Perhaps I should have included "essentially" in my statement. "nowadays you are putting in jeopardy the audience you have (by "essentially" telling them that the character they know and love is not good enough, and that they are going to be given something better, which, most of the times, is not)".
    Welcome to what minority character fans have dealt with for the last 70 years.

    When they have their own stuff-its not good enough

    When they are legacies toxic fandom comes running out the door to scream like we saw on Twitter.



    Having the most of anything does not mean you are the most popular.

    It means that particular person got the most SHOTS.

    It mean that person had the least amount of barriers.


    All Marvel can do is look at their data. Most of the legacies are having long runs than the originals not named Peter, Steve, Tony or Bruce.

    I mean it comes down to this dead horse.

    Give the originals a fair shot. Try the books. Instead of the behavior that we have seen with non-stop pushback.

  12. #2367
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Exactly. I never read a Thor solo comic in my life until Jane Thor. Read that because it was more interesting to me, liked it, and kept reading Thor afterward. Same with Miles as Spider-Man; I didn't actively keep up with Peter's books until Miles crossed over into 616.
    Same here actually, I wasn't interested in Thor at all. I didn't even like his MCU movies at the time.
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nonetheless):
    DC: I Am Batman, Milestone, Robin, Nightwing, Nubia, Aquamen, Historia, Naomi S2
    Marvel: HiXmen, Black Panther
    Image: Killadelphia, Ordinary Gods, Excellence, Nightmare Blog
    IDW: TMNT: The Last Ronin
    Other: Seven Secrets, The Antagonist, Black Hammer Reborn, Buffy the Last Vampire Slayer

  13. #2368
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    The legacy characters allows fans to experience the power set, initial premise, and themes of the hero through the lens of a more relatable (to some) or just a different character. I am not a big fantasy reader, Thor has never really interested me. A woman with cancer taking on the name of Thor to fight on earth sounds much more interesting to me. Encouraging these kinds of ventures in comics is how you get new fans of the characters.
    This is beautifully put
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nonetheless):
    DC: I Am Batman, Milestone, Robin, Nightwing, Nubia, Aquamen, Historia, Naomi S2
    Marvel: HiXmen, Black Panther
    Image: Killadelphia, Ordinary Gods, Excellence, Nightmare Blog
    IDW: TMNT: The Last Ronin
    Other: Seven Secrets, The Antagonist, Black Hammer Reborn, Buffy the Last Vampire Slayer

  14. #2369

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    I said the Loki tv show, though.
    Same answer.

  15. #2370
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Well what, in your opinion, makes it so unlikely?

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