Avenger #29-34, I Can't Quite Understand The Clues.

[jackolover]

Are we supposed to understand that because Hawkeye survived for a half century after Secret Wars, that the Earth eventually reconstituted. Clint tellsTony some made it through it and the rest died. It also looks like Clint and Steve made it through, because Steve instructed Clint to pass on the message when this event happens in the future.

Also from the meeting between Cap and Franklyn senior, are we to conclude Franky did save the universe with his sacrifice in Fantastic Four, when he and Adult Val joined Nathaniel Richards? It's strange adult Franklyn tells this Cap he can't stop the Incursions, and neither can the Illuminati. Does Franky do this deliberately to invoke a particular response from now Cap?

And both Clint, Franky as well as Cap must have also known the Kangs were drawing Cap to the far future so Cap doesn't use the Time Gem, because the whole premise was that the time gem was taking Cap to that conclusion? So Franky was at odds with the Kangs to do something after post-Secret Wars, a story that hardly seems like telling? The Kangs apparently let slip Tony Stark blows up Earth-616 with an Incursion.

Then there is the clue that Ultron Black Widow says to now Black Widow, (which is left out in the issue), when Natasha sees Tony Stark in a cell. That has occurred now, but do we find out what Natasha knows? If not, then that has still to happen.

And the other really big secret - did Uatu instigate Fury kills Uatu, because Uatu knew he had run out of time to prove Uatus father was right in one Alternate reality, knowing Incursions were going to destroy Earth very soon? That's the only reason I can think of Uatu going out that way. Uatu was despondent in OS #0, and it could only be because he saw a Living Tribunal corpse, and, because he had a Bridge that showed Incursions were unstoppable and happening on Earth, and would wear down the Illuminati and Cabal soon.

Why were all the Original Sin secrets revealed on Uatus death? Uatu deliberately summoned the Orb to the Moon just to get the Eyes for himself, and he would use them. So what purpose was the secrets in OS? I can only surmise it didn't matter anymore, so let the humans have the knowledge Uatu was storing away, because, really, the question Nova asked Cap was, "Why does the Watcher collect information?" That answer seems to be, for nothing, now the universe was ending. Just as added speculation, is anybody suspicious that all Nick Fury's Man on the Wall assassinations had anything to do with the formation of Battleworld? It certainly had nothing much to do with protecting Earth, because the heroes did that.

[Taral-DLOS]

With regards to the futures portrayed in Avengers, or really any other titles (like King Thor's future in Thor: God of Thunder), these COULD be taken as proof that the multiverse will be reconstituted, but it is not undeniable proof of it. The timelines that are merging with 616 to make Battleworld are not all doing so at the same time (consider 1602, 2099, Years of Future Past, the number of people alive on the Age of Apocalypse poster, etc.): these all point to temporal fluidity in the formation of Battleworld, and that the incursions aren't simply destroying universes, but eliminating their (predestined?) futures as well. If that were true, then showing proposed futures of Earth (Avengers 29-34, Ultron Forever, King Thor's future, King Loki's future, etc.) are not inconsistent with the incursions and Battleworld.

[vitruvian]

With regards to the futures portrayed in Avengers, or really any other titles (like King Thor's future in Thor: God of Thunder), these COULD be taken as proof that the multiverse will be reconstituted, but it is not undeniable proof of it. The timelines that are merging with 616 to make Battleworld are not all doing so at the same time (consider 1602, 2099, Years of Future Past, the number of people alive on the Age of Apocalypse poster, etc.): these all point to temporal fluidity in the formation of Battleworld, and that the incursions aren't simply destroying universes, but eliminating their (predestined?) futures as well. If that were true, then showing proposed futures of Earth (Avengers 29-34, Ultron Forever, King Thor's future, King Loki's future, etc.) are not inconsistent with the incursions and Battleworld.

Except that the Infinity Gems, including the Time Gem, only work within their own reality. Therefore, none of the futures the Time Gem takes the Avengers to in that storyline can be alternate in any way, or the Time Gem couldn't take you there.

[Taral-DLOS]

Except that the Infinity Gems, including the Time Gem, only work within their own reality. Therefore, none of the futures the Time Gem takes the Avengers to in that storyline can be alternate in any way, or the Time Gem couldn't take you there.

Sorry, what I mean to say though is that the future of the 616, in whatever form you take it, "exists" until such time that the universe meets its end via incursion. We know this because of how many of the other realities that are adding themselves to Battleworld are not doing so as of the same date.

[vitruvian]

Sorry, what I mean to say though is that the future of the 616, in whatever form you take it, "exists" until such time that the universe meets its end via incursion. We know this because of how many of the other realities that are adding themselves to Battleworld are not doing so as of the same date.

Sure, it can be a different date in different universes. That's well established.

[KOSLOX]

Except that the Infinity Gems, including the Time Gem, only work within their own reality. Therefore, none of the futures the Time Gem takes the Avengers to in that storyline can be alternate in any way, or the Time Gem couldn't take you there.

The time gem broke in each of these timelines, and only allowed certain people to "move on" which suggests there might be something else going on.

[vitruvian]

The time gem broke in each of these timelines, and only allowed certain people to "move on" which suggests there might be something else going on.

Yes, and? They don't work and then break in other realities, they just don't work at all.

[KOSLOX]

Yes, and? They don't work and then break in other realities, they just don't work at all.

You're stating something as fact, which as yet isn't supported. The time gems worked, but then broke and reshuffled the people to a different future. That suggests your theory may not be as cut and dry as you believe.

These "futures" may be actual futures, amalgam futures of battle world, imperfect futures that can't be resolved, or potential future that were severed.

[vitruvian]

You're stating something as fact, which as yet isn't supported. The time gems worked, but then broke and reshuffled the people to a different future. That suggests your theory may not be as cut and dry as you believe.

These "futures" may be actual futures, amalgam futures of battle world, imperfect futures that can't be resolved, or potential future that were severed.

I'm stating something as fact which has been stated as fact in the comics... that the Infinity Gems (there is only one Time Gem in the set of Infinity Gems in the 616) only work in their own universe. Hickman established this quite well in his own Fantastic Four run, so yes, it is supported.

From that I am concluding that the fact that the Time Gem took Cap and the others to certain times (even while breaking, which can be attributed to their use as a set to stop the one Incursion) means that those times were implicitly times in the 616 reality.

[KOSLOX]

I'm stating something as fact which has been stated as fact in the comics... that the Infinity Gems (there is only one Time Gem in the set of Infinity Gems in the 616) only work in their own universe. Hickman established this quite well in his own Fantastic Four run, so yes, it is supported.

From that I am concluding that the fact that the Time Gem took Cap and the others to certain times (even while breaking, which can be attributed to their use as a set to stop the one Incursion) means that those times were implicitly times in the 616 reality.

It's really not, you're making a supposition. If after secret wars resolves you're right I'll gladly come back and admit it. But based on the story so far and how often nearly everyone has been wrong about what is happening I don't think those futures will play out the way you're suggesting. I think it's a mistake to make a definitive statement when there are still so many questions left and the story is just reaching the third act.

The only "facts" we have now are that Steve and Co went to some futures, they fractured/whited out when the time gem broke, and 616 is destroyed as evidenced by Secret Wars/Battleworld (which causes a real problem when making a claim that these are 616 futures).

In these futures Franklin says Steve's group failed which point more towards them being amalgamated futures. Which mean they would partially contain 616. This could explain why the gem worked but broke; however, that too is supposition.

[JamJams]

The way I have always interpreted those issues is captain america travels to the future where the avengers machine he built with tony was able to spread out into the future. which meant that there was going to be a lot of ongoing plot points due to tony being a part of the illuminati and all the infighting that was happening the present.
however, franklin specifically tells steve that time is not linear and is an organism that changes as decisions are being made. therefore that future only exists because the final incursion has not yet happened in the present time. when the final incursion does happen and everything in the 616 is wiped out, that avengers-centric future will cease to exist. i imagine before the incursions it would have branched into an alternate timeline, however, with the beyonders killing the living tribunal and wiping out the remaining multiverses and there's no alternate timeline to create.

[vitruvian]

It's really not, you're making a supposition. If after secret wars resolves you're right I'll gladly come back and admit it. But based on the story so far and how often nearly everyone has been wrong about what is happening I don't think those futures will play out the way you're suggesting. I think it's a mistake to make a definitive statement when there are still so many questions left and the story is just reaching the third act.

The only "facts" we have now are that Steve and Co went to some futures, they fractured/whited out when the time gem broke, and 616 is destroyed as evidenced by Secret Wars/Battleworld (which causes a real problem when making a claim that these are 616 futures).

In these futures Franklin says Steve's group failed which point more towards them being amalgamated futures. Which mean they would partially contain 616. This could explain why the gem worked but broke; however, that too is supposition.

You're ignoring all the times it's been stated that the Infinity Gems work only in their own universe, including in Hickman's own work, why exactly? That's not supposition on my part, it's Hickman's own writing as published in Marvel comics.

Are you saying that this was not stated in Hickman's Fantastic Four? We can go to panels if you wish.

Note that I'm not saying that those futures will necessarily come to pass, but as the Time Gem sends Steve to them, they can't be the futures of any universe but the 616. That still leaves the possibility of them being wiped out or altered depending on what happens with Secret Wars; after all, we've been getting a lot of time travel within one universe that actually changes the history of that universe, lately.

[jackolover]

The way I have always interpreted those issues is captain america travels to the future where the avengers machine he built with tony was able to spread out into the future. which meant that there was going to be a lot of ongoing plot points due to tony being a part of the illuminati and all the infighting that was happening the present.
however, franklin specifically tells steve that time is not linear and is an organism that changes as decisions are being made. therefore that future only exists because the final incursion has not yet happened in the present time. when the final incursion does happen and everything in the 616 is wiped out, that avengers-centric future will cease to exist. i imagine before the incursions it would have branched into an alternate timeline, however, with the beyonders killing the living tribunal and wiping out the remaining multiverses and there's no alternate timeline to create.

Then how does old Hawkeye and Adult Franklyn have experience of the last Incursion destrying Earth, if those futures get wiped out when Earth-616 is destroyed? They had to have survived that event to know about it? See what I'm saying? If they had never heard of Secret Wars then yes their futures would be wiped out when Earth is destroyed, but something happens, and they know afterwards.

[JamJams]

Then how does old Hawkeye and Adult Franklyn have experience of the last Incursion destrying Earth, if those futures get wiped out when Earth-616 is destroyed? They had to have survived that event to know about it? See what I'm saying? If they had never heard of Secret Wars then yes their futures would be wiped out when Earth is destroyed, but something happens, and they know afterwards.

That is also easy to explain with the flowing timeline. Their last incursion wasn't the Final Incursion since it hasn't happened yet. The last incursion the future would have would be whatever the last incursions was before Steve and the other Avengers left for the future due to the future not being a linear thing anymore. When they got back to the present if another incursion happened right at that moment, the future adjusts and that incursion is now considered the 'final' incursion and due to that incursion the future might have drastically changed from the one Steve just visited.
But as Franklin mentioned in that book that the end was inevitable and was trying to warn Steve that maybe he shouldn't be trying to live whats left of his life filled with vengeance for people he called family.

[somebody]

I don't think you can draw any conclusions to Secret Wars from Original Sin.