Avengers 42 *Spoilers*

[XPac]

I disagree, there is no coming back for these characters short of a reboot. Namor should spend the rest of his life in a jail of some sort as should Dr. Strange, but neither of them will. It's not that I don't think a writer won't come up with a redemption storyline for both of them, I just don't see a way to do it and I don't see marvel having the talent on hand to do it. Or that they even think that it's necessary.

I don't think this was really all that damaging to Namor. If it were a different character, like say Peter Parker I might feel differently. But Namor is the sort of character who I think would murder billions of people to save 2 entire universes (minus the billions he killed but who would have died anyways).

A Peter Parker won't accept murdering billions of people... but not everyone is Peter Parker. I think there are SOME people who will look at the cold hard number of lives saved versus lives lost, and will act to preserve the greater number of lives regardless of the cost. There are some who will act that way simply because it makes the most sense, regardless of the personal cost.

Strange murdering the Great Society is a bigger issue. He's no Namor, but he's also no Peter Parker. He's somewhere in the middle so it's a bit more damanging to him.

[Cmbmool]

I don't think this was really all that damaging to Namor. If it were a different character, like say Peter Parker I might feel differently. But Namor is the sort of character who I think would murder billions of people to save 2 entire universes (minus the billions he killed but who would have died anyways).

A Peter Parker won't accept murdering billions of people... but not everyone is Peter Parker. I think there are SOME people who will look at the cold hard number of lives saved versus lives lost, and will act to preserve the greater number of lives regardless of the cost. There are some who will act that way simply because it makes the most sense, regardless of the personal cost.

Strange murdering the Great Society is a bigger issue. He's no Namor, but he's also no Peter Parker. He's somewhere in the middle so it's a bit more damanging to him.

Then explain OMD to me please because that Had Peter Parker making an action almost worthy of Strange.

[XPac]

Then explain OMD to me please because that Had Peter Parker making an action almost worthy of Strange.

Honestly I don't think OMD is that big a deal. All he did was end his own marriage to save the life of his aunt. It's hardly comparable to mass murder.

[Cmbmool]

Honestly I don't think OMD is that big a deal. All he did was end his own marriage to save the life of his aunt. It's hardly comparable to mass murder.

He made a deal with the devil and he couldn't find a way out of it. That's what makes it dirty.

[Gordonstar]

SpiderMan at his core always been about a misunderstood flawed man trying to do some greater good at the expense of himself.

[jphamlore]

At least Namor isn't in a non-triangle feud with Reed Richards over Sue anymore. I really don't think Namor was written out of character for either AvX or for Time Runs Out.

And Dr. Strange indulging in black magic at some cost is not exactly a new story either. He appears to still be worthy of the Eye of Agammato?

By the way, just how are demon dimensions handled in Marvel's Multiverse? Is there a Limbo for every single universe or just one? Is there a Dormammu for every universe or just one? Should the demons have tried to unite to battle the Beyonders or will the demon dimensions survive even if the Multiverse goes?

[Gordonstar]

They will all be wiped out except the actual Heaven and Hell.

[Emma's Midriff]

Honestly I don't think OMD is that big a deal. All he did was end his own marriage to save the life of his aunt. It's hardly comparable to mass murder.

I've never seen the big deal with OMD either. I only felt sorry for Peter. It wasn't until I found CBR did I realize that people were demonizing him for it.

[Reviresco]

At least Namor isn't in a non-triangle feud with Reed Richards over Sue anymore. I really don't think Namor was written out of character for either AvX or for Time Runs Out.

Then you haven't been reading much with Namor, especially in the last decade, cause AvX was certainly out of character. Namor hasn't dropped a tidal wave on anyone since the 40s and Brubaker explained why in Marvels Project. The last time Atlantis was at war with Wakanda, a war which Wakanda started, Namor agreed to 'surrender' to fix T'challa's mistakes and avoid bloodshed. Likewise, after Civil War when Stark tried to start crap with Atlantis, Namor evacuated his city and blew it up to avoid a war which would have led to the destruction of the oceans and the world.

As for TRO, we will have to see what Namor actually means in his conversation with Black Swan.

And Dr. Strange indulging in black magic at some cost is not exactly a new story either. He appears to still be worthy of the Eye of Agammato?

By the way, just how are demon dimensions handled in Marvel's Multiverse? Is there a Limbo for every single universe or just one? Is there a Dormammu for every universe or just one? Should the demons have tried to unite to battle the Beyonders or will the demon dimensions survive even if the Multiverse goes?

I doubt the demon dimensions will survive. Everything dies.

I hope Dr. Strange gets a decent showing in this upcoming issue. His neglect in this has been monumental.

[Darkspellmaster]

With all the Sumerian/Babylonian mythology background surrounding Black Swan and Rabum Alal, it would make a lot of sense for Strange to be able to do as much if he uncovers all the Words on the Tablet of Destines.

If he does that with Dr. Doom on hand with whatever he's doing with Molecule man and mixing that magic with what's going on within the Thor universe via the World Tree (which I'm sure will have some part in all this given it's connections to the multiverse at some point in time) it could be very feasible that he does manage to do as you say and uncover all the words. Although I wonder if he's setting up the Black Priest to use as part of the spell. Are they really real or are they just constructs, thus living energies?

I'm kind of surprised that no one mentioned the fact that the festival of Akitu falls in April/May in our calendar which was the celebration where "the re-creation of the Earth, drawing from the Marduk-centered creation story". Given that this seems to be going into creation myths here there could be something to be said about the timing of the last two Avengers issues. Then again I may be just seeing things there.

You can make the arguement that's what T'Challa should have done.

I think the trade off likely would have been that Shuri wouldn't be willing to work with Namor. So it's swapping Namor for Shuri. That likely makes things easier for T'Challa... though they lose the person most willing to actually detonate the bombs.

Shuri in a lot of cases was an enigma. While she may have not been willing to detonate the bombs, she may have had some other ideas for alternate ways to stop the incursion or maybe have it where the incursions pass through one another. Would she have been that unwilling to work with Namor? He's usually more polite and gentlemanly when it comes to ladies, and probably would treat her with more respect then T'challa given that she's younger so he'd not want a outright fight with her.

I disagree, there is no coming back for these characters short of a reboot. Namor should spend the rest of his life in a jail of some sort as should Dr. Strange, but neither of them will. It's not that I don't think a writer won't come up with a redemption storyline for both of them, I just don't see a way to do it and I don't see marvel having the talent on hand to do it. Or that they even think that it's necessary anymore than they thought that Tony needed one. They might throw one together in their spare time, but experience has shown me that marvel finds it easier to make heroes bad guys than to bring them back.

Namor has been in existence since 1939, he and the Human Torch, along with Black Widow (the first one) are really the founders of the Marvel Universe. Namor has come back from worse, far worse given that his own wife was pretty much killed in the most horrible way possible for an Atlantean, then her body cloned and turned into primordial goo. He's been through a lot of stuff over the years, and the surface dwellers are usually the ones that pick a fight with him, not the other way around. Yes what he did wasn't exactly the best thing he could do, and he acknowledged that, willingly offered to turn himself in for trial. James Robinson could, given he managed to do redemption for some very dark characters in DC's past. Brubecker probably could, Waid possibly, there are other writers that could pull it off if given the chance. I can't see them going full evil with Strange or Namor for the reason that both are seen as very valid characters that can float in a gray area that is needed for some stories. However regarding Tony's whole "use the magic of removing memories" that probably will be addressed in the future (I hope). Namor's more then likely going to isolate himself in the near future from a lot of the Marvel groups. He's going to have a hard time trusting anyone after this and I think Strange is probably going to take a long journey to figure himself out and probably try to get back his soul from what he did.

I don't think this was really all that damaging to Namor. If it were a different character, like say Peter Parker I might feel differently. But Namor is the sort of character who I think would murder billions of people to save 2 entire universes (minus the billions he killed but who would have died anyways).

Not really. Namor is willing to threaten a lot of things, but he doesn't take a life that easily. What he does is always on his mind, has been no matter what and he's aware of it. I think it's done some damage in that people aren't seeing the good side of him, and are just viewing him as a tyrant, which he's not. Namor's a hot head, but he's also a king that does realize that there's more to life. Remember he's lived for longer then most of the other members of Marvel so he's had a long time to view humanities ups and downs.

[quoteA Peter Parker won't accept murdering billions of people... but not everyone is Peter Parker. I think there are SOME people who will look at the cold hard number of lives saved versus lives lost, and will act to preserve the greater number of lives regardless of the cost. There are some who will act that way simply because it makes the most sense, regardless of the personal cost. [/quote]

The few I can think of that would do that are usually the characters that tend to have no heart or emotional connections. I would say Vision may have been like that in the past, but he's not like that now. I can't really think of any of the characters in marvel that are out right into cold hard numbers. I can think of one or two in DC but that's because of who they are, the GL corps leaders on OA come to mind. In marvel I would say maybe the Kree at times can be like that, or the Galadorians from ROM, but other then that, I'm sure most of the Mavel U, even the bad guys would be a bit hesitant to even think of pulling off this whole stunt.

Strange murdering the Great Society is a bigger issue. He's no Namor, but he's also no Peter Parker. He's somewhere in the middle so it's a bit more damaging to him.

I found it really really weird for Strange to do that in the first place. He's not a killer, not even Namor would kill like that. So the whole thing felt like a giant contrivance to me and was really why I stopped reading. Given that Marvel gave the title back to him after the whole thing with Brother Voodoo, I really hope that Stephen has to go through a journey again to deal with his actions and that the mantle is placed on someone who may be better for the role for a while. Is Brother voodoo still alive?

[Darkspellmaster]

At least Namor isn't in a non-triangle feud with Reed Richards over Sue anymore. I really don't think Namor was written out of character for either AvX or for Time Runs Out.

And Dr. Strange indulging in black magic at some cost is not exactly a new story either. He appears to still be worthy of the Eye of Agammato?

By the way, just how are demon dimensions handled in Marvel's Multiverse? Is there a Limbo for every single universe or just one? Is there a Dormammu for every universe or just one? Should the demons have tried to unite to battle the Beyonders or will the demon dimensions survive even if the Multiverse goes?

In regard to Sue/Namor/Reed, a lot of writers fall on to that ignoring the fact that he did have a long time love interest, Dorma, who was later removed for unknown reasons. Namor had gotten over his thing wit Sue, I think, although some writers don't see it that way? I don't know. AvX he was odd in that he was being some what controlled (also does Namor count as a Mutant in the first place?) and TRO is still on going but they're painting him as selfish which really isn't his thing. Abrasive, yes, but selfish to this degree, not really as far as I've read.

Regarding Strange, that remains to be seen given that it was taken from him in the past. His assistant seemed to indicate that this wasn't a good idea, and I think he's worried that the eye will be corrupted, which would be a bad thing. I do think that Strange may lose the eye probably after everything, but for now he's still got ahold of it. Or at least appears to. Unless we see other versions of the good Doctor running around.

As far as I understand there seems to be one demon dimension, but maybe alternate forms of the Demons, or they take alternate forms versus being different versions of themselves. At least that's as far as I can tell, although there seems to be different areas. I think the demon dimension is somehow outside of the normal realm of the main universe. Given that Hela has a portion of it for her own use, and we've seen that there are layers to it, I would hesitate to guess that it may be still standing much like the access of the area where the One above All stays, those being unaffected because they're not normal dimensional beings, Ie. you can't kill them apparently.

Then you haven't been reading much with Namor, especially in the last decade, cause AvX was certainly out of character. Namor hasn't dropped a tidal wave on anyone since the 40s and Brubaker explained why in Marvels Project. The last time Atlantis was at war with Wakanda, a war which Wakanda started, Namor agreed to 'surrender' to fix T'challa's mistakes and avoid bloodshed. Likewise, after Civil War when Stark tried to start crap with Atlantis, Namor evacuated his city and blew it up to avoid a war which would have led to the destruction of the oceans and the world.

Namor always acts like a king and pretty much tries to be diplomatic. Heck he keeps trying to be a part of the UN and they keep rejecting him, which is really odd seeing as Atlantis has control over the oceans. I wouldn't want to tick off the people that can control the water supply you know. Also that's a good point, he's usually having to clean up other people's messes when it comes to them starting stuff with Atlantis.

First off he could mean the actual beyonders and their positions as gods themselves and pushing forward against their compulsion.
Second he could mean Thanos, who is very much like a God in his own way, and that he's going to move forward and not stop to look at everything so that he can focus on keeping Thanos off guard.
Third, is that he's abandoning all he knows and is just going to be Namor without title or connections to who he is which I don't buy.
Last and the one I don't like, and is a bit like the third one, where he's pretty much going into a sort of depression and feels like there's nothing for him past moving straight and not feeling anything.

Honestly my guess is that it's a mix of one and two. He's trying to focus on the task at hand rather then thinking about things that could be and may have been. He's building himself up for some sort battle both inside and out. Given Avenger World 24's cover, I'm suspecting that he's going to be heading after Thanos, and hoping to stop him from something. Though I don't know what yet.

[TresDias]

By the way, just how are demon dimensions handled in Marvel's Multiverse? Is there a Limbo for every single universe or just one? Is there a Dormammu for every universe or just one? Should the demons have tried to unite to battle the Beyonders or will the demon dimensions survive even if the Multiverse goes?

Each universe has its own version of all of those, as seen in various alternate universe stories over the years.

Also demonstrated by Thanos using the Infinity Gauntlet in Mephisto's realm (the Infinity Gems only work in their native universe).

They will all be wiped out except the actual Heaven and Hell.

What makes you think there is one aside from what we know already? We've seen the various death realms of Marvel before. As I mentioned to Mark when he brought up God/Satan, the Marvel Multiverse doesn't subscribe to a Judaeo-Christian model.

[tasmaniantwister]

Then you haven't been reading much with Namor, especially in the last decade, cause AvX was certainly out of character. Namor hasn't dropped a tidal wave on anyone since the 40s and Brubaker explained why in Marvels Project. The last time Atlantis was at war with Wakanda, a war which Wakanda started, Namor agreed to 'surrender' to fix T'challa's mistakes and avoid bloodshed. Likewise, after Civil War when Stark tried to start crap with Atlantis, Namor evacuated his city and blew it up to avoid a war which would have led to the destruction of the oceans and the world.

As for TRO, we will have to see what Namor actually means in his conversation with Black Swan.





I doubt the demon dimensions will survive. Everything dies.

I hope Dr. Strange gets a decent showing in this upcoming issue. His neglect in this has been monumental.

Agree regarding Namor and even Strange. I find it curious that most of the comments about Namor's willingness to murder large numbers of innocents to allegedly save a greater number of same, whether they come from people decrying him or those who claim he's the real hero of the story, all seem to accept that he takes life easily. When and where? Part of it I think is Namor's pretty damaging tenure with the X-men, during a period of time where their behavior has gotten more and more extreme. Membership in other groups in the past, Defenders, Avengers and especially the Invaders, has tended to bring out the best in the sea king, not so the X-men. Also, there's been almost no mention, let alone focus on the fact that Atlantis has been "destroyed" for the billionth time. This stands as stark contrast to the emphasis on Wakanda's fall. As for Stephen, it goes way beyond neglect. I can't think of a single thing he's ever done that would lead you to believe he's capable of the stone-cold, premeditated murder of altruistic beings for any reason. Between Bendis portraying him as incompetent, the whole "geezer" thing with him and the young women and this supposed willingness to "sell his soul" and commit murder, I don't think Strange has ever been so damaged before. Hickman has served both characters poorly.

[Strangefan]

The story has the real feel that Hickman took pivotal characters in Marvel, and used them to tell his tale. I have found nothing particularly true in the writing of any of the characters. Captain America so single minded, Reed Richards so indecisive, thinking outside of the box is kind of his thing. Strange not even knowing where his soul is? Really, he's a magic user, I think that was kind of a big part of the training. Iron Man has flirted with his darker side, but again, not to this extent. On and on.

So I don't take any of the characterizations in Hickman's writings as anything permanent. He is doing it to tell his story, not to further the evolution of the characters. They are just being used to tell it. The only character he has spent any time on feels to be Black Panther, and even he runs around with the same story, his ancestors telling him to continue a vendetta that has lead to only death. But death and horror is what Hickman is writing about, so death there must be.

Soon, it will end, we will go into Secret Wars, and these comics will likely end, or morph into something else. Later, someone else will take over a similar comic, and hopefully be invested to character development, and not just a three year tale of destruction. I am sure it will serve a purpose, to kind of reset Marvel. If that leads to continuity, perhaps this long, long story will be worth it. I just remain sad that this comic, for which I returned to comics after 19 years actually did very little with my favorite, Doctor Strange, other than total character destruction. After all that time away, I have to say I am disappointed. But I do want to see what happens, but no few pages of potential redemption is really going to make it up to this fan, not after three years.

[SidheKnight]

It can't be because of the incursion because they probably don't know about them.

It is implied that they know about them. It's just that Mentor detected them too late, and now there are very few universes left, that they can't take chances. Kill Earth, save the Universe.

At least Bendis gave everyone a distinct personality. In this, everyone sounds like Jonathan Hickman.

Seriously? In Bendis stories, everybody sounds like a teenager.
I'd say that's a defect both writers have in common.

I didn't mean to rustle the Bendis haters. I still like Hickman more than Bendy for his epic scope and storytelling, I just miss Bendis chit chat. I think I'm alone on this one. Hickman chit chat is so clinical, even kids and brain damaged villains speak like college professors.

Not hating . I get that lenghty philosophical speeches and technobabble can get very tiresome for some people (not for me, I love those things), but Bendis wasn't the best comparison. He's also known for giving his characters the same speech patterns. I can see casual chit-chat being missed in such dire situations (as long as it's not done on every page, of course).

As for kids, the only one I've seen in this story arc is Valeria Richards, and she could very well be a college professor.

Not really arguing that Hickman doesn't make everyone sound similar (besides some of the characters with some distinct personalities,, they all sound kinda the same) but Bendis did exactly the same thing, except he made everyone sound like Ultimate Spider-Man.

Parker or Morales?