Avengers 42 *Spoilers*

[XPac]

The phoenix actually came for them during AvX-- they were preparing to harness it to fix their evolutionary problems, or something like that. It was in Secret Avengers AvX tie-in (I think? anyway it was with Ms Marvel's and Beast's space team). Captain Mar-Vell I think was hinted to have been revived using the phoenix at that time, but I think it was dropped.

I agree about everything except the SOS thing-- it seems too specific. If the phoenix thinks you need help shouldn't it just come on over, find a host, and fix it? why all this stuff with messiah and lights? it just seemed unnecessarily complicated & silly.

Also is the D'Bari thing is a retcon? in the DPS Jean just accidentally killed them off while eating their sun.

Especially silly since the Lights didn't actually end up doing anything. The whole thing was overly complicated.

I'm never really understood why the Phoenix even needed a host. If it wants to do something, why does it need Hope? Just do it.

[Wren]

I thought it was maybe because the host has more "rationality", "contextual knowledge", and maybe "desire".
Like the phoenix itself may be indifferent to what to do. It doesn't work? kill everything and start over. But it takes a host if it finds one so there's a chance for a more nuanced solution. The host influences how to achieve the goals of the phoenix.

[ExodusCloak]

Especially silly since the Lights didn't actually end up doing anything. The whole thing was overly complicated.

I'm never really understood why the Phoenix even needed a host. If it wants to do something, why does it need Hope? Just do it.

The Phoenix Force was not a being it was a Force hence the need for a host. It could never act on the physical plane without one until AvX. And the lights were there because the story was changed last minute. Had Kenji or German Baby been used it would have been fine. But Unit wanted to see what would happen if she didn't have her lights cause he knew what would happen if she did.

Also is the D'Bari thing is a retcon? in the DPS Jean just accidentally killed them off while eating their sun.

Yep it's a retcon, turns out the Phoenix always meant to kill them though, it just had Xerox-Jean do it without her realizing she did it.

[dragonmp93]

The phoenix actually came for them during AvX-- they were preparing to harness it to fix their evolutionary problems, or something like that. It was in Secret Avengers AvX tie-in (I think? anyway it was with Ms Marvel's and Beast's space team). Captain Mar-Vell I think was hinted to have been revived using the phoenix at that time, but I think it was dropped.

I agree about everything except the SOS thing-- it seems too specific. If the phoenix thinks you need help shouldn't it just come on over, find a host, and fix it? why all this stuff with messiah and lights? it just seemed unnecessarily complicated & silly.

Also is the D'Bari thing is a retcon? in the DPS Jean just accidentally killed them off while eating their sun.

Especially silly since the Lights didn't actually end up doing anything. The whole thing was overly complicated.

I'm never really understood why the Phoenix even needed a host. If it wants to do something, why does it need Hope? Just do it.

I think that you confusing the Phoenix with the Judeo-Christian God, because the Phoenix is only omnipotent, it lacks the omniscient and omnipresent part; that's why the Phoenix needs a host.

[XPac]

I think that you confusing the Phoenix with the Judeo-Christian God, because the Phoenix is only omnipotent, it lacks the omniscient and omnipresent part; that's why the Phoenix needs a host.

I'm still not getting it. If it couldn't or didn't know how to restore mutants without a host, why would getting Hope suddenly make it possible? Phoenix may not be omniscient or omnipresent, but neither is Hope.

[XPac]

The Phoenix Force was not a being it was a Force hence the need for a host. It could never act on the physical plane without one until AvX. And the lights were there because the story was changed last minute. Had Kenji or German Baby been used it would have been fine. But Unit wanted to see what would happen if she didn't have her lights cause he knew what would happen if she did.



Yep it's a retcon, turns out the Phoenix always meant to kill them though, it just had Xerox-Jean do it without her realizing she did it.

But considering the Phoenix did in face act on the physical plane without a host in this very story, it still begs the question why the heck it needed Hope.

Plus, did the Phoenix actually have a host when it was pretending to be Jean Grey? Wasn't she at the bottom of the ocean in a cocoon or something? Or was that retconned?

Like I said earlier... Phoenix is just weird.

[dragonmp93]

I'm still not getting it. If it couldn't or didn't know how to restore mutants without a host, why would getting Hope suddenly make it possible? Phoenix may not be omniscient or omnipresent, but neither is Hope.

Well, Hope knows that the mutants needs to be saved and restored, so just think of a cosmic versión of 911.

But considering the Phoenix did in face act on the physical plane without a host in this very story, it still begs the question why the heck it needed Hope.

Plus, did the Phoenix actually have a host when it was pretending to be Jean Grey? Wasn't she at the bottom of the ocean in a cocoon or something? Or was that retconned?

Like I said earlier... Phoenix is just weird.

Well, that depends on the versión of the story that you are using.

[ExodusCloak]

But considering the Phoenix did in face act on the physical plane without a host in this very story, it still begs the question why the heck it needed Hope.

Plus, did the Phoenix actually have a host when it was pretending to be Jean Grey? Wasn't she at the bottom of the ocean in a cocoon or something? Or was that retconned?

Like I said earlier... Phoenix is just weird.

It had a portion of her soul.

[ZNOP]

It had a portion of her soul.

And, duplicated her body to contain that portion of her soul while providing that duplicate body with a life force. Simply put, Phoenix/Jean Grey was a combination of Jean Grey's mind, body, a portion of her soul, which was animated by the Phoenix Force.

[Mark]

And, duplicate her body to contain that portion of her soul while providing the same duplicate body with a life force. Simply put, Phoenix/Jean Grey was a combination of Jean Grey's mind, body, a portion of her soul, animated by the Phoenix Force. All to which was done until Jean's original body healed.

They just couldn't leave well enough alone.

[XPac]

And, duplicated her body to contain that portion of her soul while providing that duplicate body with a life force. Simply put, Phoenix/Jean Grey was a combination of Jean Grey's mind, body, a portion of her soul, which was animated by the Phoenix Force.

This is what I mean by Phoenix being overly convoluted. Instead of all that it should have just stayed freaking Jean Grey.

[ZNOP]

They just couldn't leave well enough alone.

Well, Jean was already irrecoverably tied to the Phoenix Force -- not to mention that she had to wake up and leave the bay eventually...

[dragonmp93]

This is what I mean by Phoenix being overly convoluted. Instead of all that it should have just stayed freaking Jean Grey.

Well, given that the Phoenix was created to retcon a 10-digits body count............................................. .........

[jackolover]

Still, it's sort of weird that every single planet between Phoenix and Earth just happened to be an evolutionary dead end. Maybe there's a lot of evolutionary dead ends in the universe, but it's still sort of odd.

As far as the rest of the universe being so obsessed with earth... despite how everyone seems to go on and on about how small and primative and insignificant earth is, I'm sure someone will at one point state earth is somehow significant if it hasn't been done so already. There's gotta be SOMETHING about it.

Even the incursions right now seem to really place earth at the heart of the issue for some reason.

Maybe the trigger for the Phoenix to start destroying evolutionary dead planets was the Incursions? Phoenix knows the end of the Multiverse is coming, so it does this one thing to arm the Earth with fully functioning mutants, one of which is Eva Bell. Coincidently, Black Bolt decides more Inhumans are needed and sets off a mutation Bomb also. It maybe as simple as Rabum Alal is playing his chess game with the Beyonders and the Phoenix gambit causes all this stuff to happen. First the mutants, then later in Infinity, the Inhumans. We may later get told that these adjustments were made as necessary strengthening of Dooms position?

[jackolover]

The Phoenix is just weird. Why does it do anything it does? Why not just WILL mutants back, if that's what it wants instead of creating Hope and the lights and all that other stuff. I've stopped even trying to understand why the Phoenix does what it does.

I remember that one time a villain summoned the Phoenix to Earth, in an Iron Man OGN, and it destroyed Earth. No special mutant restoring imperative there. It took Stark and a Doom Time Platform to restore the timeline where The Phoenix didn't destroy Earth. It seems since that OGN Phoenix has returned with a more sympathetic approach to Earth. So from Starks POV the approach of the Phoenix in AVX had a completely different impact on Tony than it did on Scott.