Avengers 42 *Spoilers*

[Narasinha]

The point behind the Living Tribunals Death is no matter what, no matter WHAT PLAN wheather Rogers helped the illuminati or not, they were screwed anyways. Tony Stark knew this for a while. He was the first on the scene for the Living Tribunals death. The living Tribunal is beyond the PF power, Scotts plan is doomed from the start.

Based on that issue, nobody is still planning to save the universe. Their goals is to allow some people to survive the final incursion, one way or another. In that respect, Scott's plan is not more doomed than anyone else's. The White Phoenix (and even more the cosmic Phoenix) was shown, several time, to be able to "rewrite" reality, destroy/construct whole worlds (see NmH for example) and, as important, was shown a willingness to do it for Earth and humanity.

The various cosmic entities that died weren't trying to save Earth but to fight the Ivory Knight. Scott plans is not to fight them. But to survive. And Phoenix would certainly help him doing so.

Some people are looking for a technological method. Others at a "super powered" one. I am just suprised that they didn't showed us people planning for a magical method.

but if his plan is something like building an ark so the mutants can live in the void between universes, then the things are different.

I doubt that its about building an ark or something like that. Not with the power of the Phoenix. And there is no reason that the Phoenix would limit itself to mutants if it can save Earth or humanity from the final incursion.

The technological ark stuff is cute but how many people may they expect to save that way? A few hundred? Maybe a few thousand if we are very generous. But that's about it. Even if the whole Shi'ar fleet was helping evacuate the Earth, they would only be able to get a very small part of the total population.

In NmH, when Magneto asked, the Phoenix said it would consider creating a world in the void between the universe (of whatever it is) for the mutants from the various alternate universe that are persecuted. Scott is probably hoping for something like that. Or at least having the Phoenix help part of Earth to transition to post-final incursion. (And there is no reason that Scott and Phoenix would not do it for non-mutants too if they can)

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

In Avengers AI #11, Future Alexis reveals that Dimitrios "trapped the mutants in an alternate timeline."

Also in Avengers AI, Dimitrios used something similar to the LT's skin (the head of Galactus) to enter the white space (which I still think is a metaphor for comic book gutter).

The Future Avengers seen in the flashforward panels from SHIELD v2 #4 appeared in Avengers World.

That Ark doesn't look like Battleworld, so its probably a red herring that's going to fail, but maybe they can salvage something from the design.

Namor and Black Swan- perfect couple! Maybe that's what Swan's been looking for going from world to world.

[bandoogiemanz]

In Avengers AI #11, Future Alexis reveals that Dimitrios "trapped the mutants in an alternate timeline."

Also in Avengers AI, Dimitrios used something similar to the LT's skin (the head of Galactus) to enter the white space (which I still think is a metaphor for comic book gutter).

The Future Avengers seen in the flashforward panels from SHIELD v2 #4 appeared in Avengers World.

That Ark doesn't look like Battleworld, so its probably a red herring that's going to fail, but maybe they can salvage something from the design.

Namor and Black Swan- perfect couple! Maybe that's what Swan's been looking for going from world to world.

Yeah, I see the arc blowing up in the 'heroes' faces if it even gets built at all. I may have missed it, but I haven't seen any indication yet that the alien races who are about to engage the earth are present on Battleworld. It'd be some crazy ish, if a reborn Phoenix wiped them out.

[vitruvian]

That sounds fun. And then the group in Manhattan thinks everyone else is dead. Oh, the fun!

But wait...if that's the case...then I guess the Legion of Monsters won't be on the list for the Arc. I just want to see everyone's reactions to not being on the Arc.

In the interest of not causing mass panic, riots, etc. by those trying to crowd on the Ark - they probably don't even announce that they've built the thing, just use Manifold and other teleporters to grab the people they've decided are worth saving. I mean, what's the point of letting people know they didn't make the cut and giving them the opportunity to either stow away or sabotage the thing?

Which would mean people aren't able to have this reaction until after the final Incursion and they're on Battleworld - but luckily the Legion of Monsters is among those saved this way, since we know the Monster Metropolis is part of the merged 616/1610 Manhattan from the map.

And it's not an electrical arc, it's an ark, as in a big lifeboat like Noah's ark.

[vitruvian]

This is going to cause a major fight because you know people are going to be like "Why does X get to go but Y doesn't" in the main verse. I'm also guessing they're going to go for the youngest of all the members of the world because who better to have kids then those that aren't old already. I'm also assuming artists and the like will be allowed aboard. Actually this sort of reminds me of some of the old Star Wars EU stories where, prior to the prequels, there was a mention and a book surrounding the idea that some of the elder Jedi gathered up the children and the teens and put them on an ark to get as far from the Empire as possible. Nothing ever did come of it, since the Jedi never did find it in that book, but it was out there for other writers to write about if they wanted.

There's also a question of infighting when it comes to deciding who gets to go. Got a bad feeling Tony may help screw this up some how, or Doom may also be planning something.

Absolutely, there's the potential in this ark idea of those kinds of problems.

Doesn't that mean the like of aliens in most of the marvel universe will be gone? Also do they know that the Living Tribunals skin will work? Or are they just going on the assumptions?

Well, yes, it would mean that only those saved on the ark live, while everybody else is kaput. Remember, as far as they know at this point, the entire universe dies when an Incursion completes; they don't even know about the War Zones being saved for Battleworld at this point, although it's possible they may have guessed at something like it. And as far as we know, all that survives of each universe is whatever small chunk of that universe's Earth gets to Battleworld, and everything else dies. The 'alien' zones on Battleworld are presumably not from alien planets, but from alternate Earths that were taken over by one alien race or another.... but that doesn't do any of the 616 aliens any good.

And sure, the use of the Living Tribunal's skin is guesswork... but probably good guesswork, and it's not like we haven't seen multiple factions and individuals surviving in white space for extended periods anyway.

But are they not interfering because it meets their needs, and can they actually get to the black priests?

We really don't know who's interfering and for what reasons... and as for the Black Priests, perhaps the fact that they're hanging on (last we saw) indicates that once you are in white space, you're not as vulnerable. Or perhaps even the sub-Stephen Strange ones are insanely powerful enough that they're a bigger problem for the Ivory Kings and the Great Destroyer than we've fully realized yet. Perhaps Black Swan's reaction to Stephen Strange was not just disdain, but fear that such an individual could actually mess things up for whatever faction she really represents, since Sorceror Supremes of his level seem to be relatively rare (although obviously not nonexistent, given the number of alternate Dr. Strange's and Sorceror Supremes such as Doom, Magik, and even Tony Stark we've seen in alternate realities in past stories).

From what Mercury told Tanthal the board was something set up by really old gods that vanished and that they took a bunch of alien races and had them fight until the superiors won. So at the most, only the best ones in the multiverse would be able to come back if they beat the others. The question is would the teams that are involved in this actually want to fight like that? Partly I would say yes, but then again several sections are made of heroes and the like that can work together as a team so....they would come back but only the best of the best.

When you said 'happened before', I assumed you meant the complete destruction of the entire universe. That's what I meant by saying it was hopeful to think that it happened before, since if the entire universe (possibly except for a small chunk of one planet) was destroyed in the past, then obviously the whole shebang of billions of galaxies must have been recreated at some point... with billions of alien races, too, and billions if not more alternate realities in which this was also true. No telling if the majority of those were 'winners' from the last cycle, or created from scratch when the universe got restarted.

If you're just talking about some ancient race setting up war games among all the sapient species within one universe, without the existence of everything involved, then it's really not at all the same thing as what's happening now.

The funny thing is they haven't talked about that at all. I'm hoping that you're right though! I would rather the population of Atlantis not be fully gone. Shame there's not an Atlantis Battleworld book, but with Namor becoming a sort of villain...I'm crossing my fingers that we do get something. Maybe it's a secret that they haven't revealed yet?

Even beyond there being plenty of ocean on the Battleworld Map... you'd think there'd be at least one alternate where the Atlanteans conquered the surface world permanently, and it's not like the map is comprehensive.

[vitruvian]

Yeah, I see the arc blowing up in the 'heroes' faces if it even gets built at all. I may have missed it, but I haven't seen any indication yet that the alien races who are about to engage the earth are present on Battleworld. It'd be some crazy ish, if a reborn Phoenix wiped them out.

Why would the Phoenix need to do that? The final Incursion should take care of them.

[dragonmp93]

Somehow, I'm pretty sure Bendis function exacty the same way when writing. Would explain a lot of things actually.



Why an ark ONLY for mutants ?

Based on that issue, nobody is still planning to save the universe. Their goals is to allow some people to survive the final incursion, one way or another. In that respect, Scott's plan is not more doomed than anyone else's. The White Phoenix (and even more the cosmic Phoenix) was shown, several time, to be able to "rewrite" reality, destroy/construct whole worlds (see NmH for example) and, as important, was shown a willingness to do it for Earth and humanity.

The various cosmic entities that died weren't trying to save Earth but to fight the Ivory Knight. Scott plans is not to fight them. But to survive. And Phoenix would certainly help him doing so.

Some people are looking for a technological method. Others at a "super powered" one. I am just suprised that they didn't showed us people planning for a magical method.



I doubt that its about building an ark or something like that. Not with the power of the Phoenix. And there is no reason that the Phoenix would limit itself to mutants if it can save Earth or humanity from the final incursion.

The technological ark stuff is cute but how many people may they expect to save that way? A few hundred? Maybe a few thousand if we are very generous. But that's about it. Even if the whole Shi'ar fleet was helping evacuate the Earth, they would only be able to get a very small part of the total population.

In NmH, when Magneto asked, the Phoenix said it would consider creating a world in the void between the universe (of whatever it is) for the mutants from the various alternate universe that are persecuted. Scott is probably hoping for something like that. Or at least having the Phoenix help part of Earth to transition to post-final incursion. (And there is no reason that Scott and Phoenix would not do it for non-mutants too if they can)

I think that Doctor Strange is the one who has the magical method.

Anyways, how long i know, the Phoenix is a benevolent sentient cosmic forcé, but its not jesus, and i would say that it still remembers AvX; and unless the adult Jean Grey is the one that comes from that egg, i dont think that Cyclops would in the mood of letting the Avengers inside the ark. (Well, that's what i got from his dialogue.)

Why would the Phoenix need to do that? The final Incursion should take care of them.

Well, that depends on who arrives first.

[useridgoeshere]

I can never really resist a cosmic story arc, but I detect several issues of PIS coming from Secret Wars/Battle World in the near future... I mean really, after witnessing the Beyonders polish off a gaggle of abstract entities (including the Living Tribunal) as easily as a NYC apartment dweller killing off a colony Cockroaches with a household can of Raid; what's to stop the Beyonders from doing the same (abstract or hosted) to the Phoenix Force? I also can't help but wonder how the "One Above All" will play into this...

Actually, in spite of being late to the whole deal and having no direct connection to the main discoveries we see, except maybe if Beast is feeding him tidbits, Scott Summers is at the same place as Reed and T'Challa and he's ahead of Roberto in understanding the end goal. That's kind of an impressive showing. Since Scott Summers is not a scientist and his best scientist is an unmitigated failure, Hickman has probably given Scott Summers the smartest plan he can.

[Celestialbodies]

We do see a red egg behind those doors. It may very well be a phoenix egg. I wonder if Hope is involved. Hickman showed her briefly in SHIELD a few years ago, together with Mister Franklin.

I am praying that the plague that is Hope Summers is never again set upon the X-franchise, after seven years of holding the narrative hostage only to accumulate in the travesty that is AvX keep Hope Summers in fringe titles only!!!!

I've read today's issue, it looks like he created the Phoenix Egg. I don't think it's the one from Morrison's run, cause with T.Jean here in the present shouldn't it be non-existent since Jean and Phoenix are now one and the same?

How does one go about creating a Phoenix Egg? I thought he was just incubating it.

[XPac]

Actually, in spite of being late to the whole deal and having no direct connection to the main discoveries we see, except maybe if Beast is feeding him tidbits, Scott Summers is at the same place as Reed and T'Challa and he's ahead of Roberto in understanding the end goal. That's kind of an impressive showing. Since Scott Summers is not a scientist and his best scientist is an unmitigated failure, Hickman has probably given Scott Summers the smartest plan he can.

I'll be impressed if Scott actually has the degree of understanding and control of the Phoenix necessary to pull off whatever he's pulling off. Typically the Phoenix isn't going to necessarily do what Scott wants unless he happens to be dating it at the time.

[Jean Grey]

The egg supposedly would always have been in the moon. With Scott having had the Phoenix for a while it could in theory had alerted him of this, and hence him getting his hands on it.

What hatches from it (if it even gets to hatch) is the real question, something tells me the egg is just there as a way to acknowledge the Phoenix Force and it will also be promptly killed like Eternity and the others. They seem to be writing the titles to sort of kill all hope in the characters.

[ZNOP]

The white space between universes sounds a lot like the White Hot Room (http://marvel.wikia.com/White_Hot_Room) that is the Force's home.

The "White Hot Room" is and will always be one of if not the worse retcon in Marvel history

[useridgoeshere]

I'll be impressed if Scott actually has the degree of understanding and control of the Phoenix necessary to pull off whatever he's pulling off. Typically the Phoenix isn't going to necessarily do what Scott wants unless he happens to be dating it at the time.

I agree, in theory, but is the plan worse than any other, given what we know and Scott Summers' capabilities? I don't think that we can judge anything by its success, because there is no success possible in the way the story is constructed. While Scott Summers did chase off the Celestials with the sheer force of his personality in Gillen's run, I think a plan for him to do that to another Earth, the Beyonders or the Ra's Al Ghul dude is not as good as this one.

[HUTHAIFA]

This was pretty great, i enjoyed Hickman's Cyclops quite a bit. He comes off sounding somewhat unhinged and dangerous. It felt like Bobby and Sam were a little afraid of him.

I'm guessing the Phoenix will play an important role in creating Battleworld.

I loved it. Maybe when Hckman rests up, he takes over the X-men franchise.

[People Of The Earth]

Anyways, how long i know, the Phoenix is a benevolent sentient cosmic forcé, but its not jesus, and i would say that it still remembers AvX; and unless the adult Jean Grey is the one that comes from that egg, i dont think that Cyclops would in the mood of letting the Avengers inside the ark. (Well, that's what i got from his dialogue.)

Since when saving civilians = saving the Avengers anyway ?