What if Clark saved Jonathan Kent from the tornado?

[Powerboy]

Everyone thought Zod, Ursa, and Non died at the end of Superman 2 when seeing it, initially, they just didn't care. It's only relatively recent retconning due to learning about Donner's cut in the past 5 years or so, and people before then trying to explain why a Superman that threw a guy down a bar and hooked up with a woman, regretted it, and erased her memory afterwards to not have consequences didn't reallllly kill someone because that didn't fit his personality.

Interesting. I and just about everybody I knew took it as a given that he didn't kill them in 1981 when it appeared on-screen and it seems to me that the "He did kill them" is a relatively recent thing as far as any major following mostly from people who weren't part of that era.

Which really is interesting and, by the way, I completely agree with your analysis of why people respond so negatively to MoS.

[MichaelC]

Yeah honestly he has
- killed in the comics
- caused a lot of property damage in the comics
- has failed to save people in the comics


there's nothing in MoS' controversial fight scenes that wouldn't , or in cases hasn't happened in the comics

Which brings us back to the original question

Why the hell did he let his father die? :/

About the only thing that makes no sense in the movie

True, but the times just seem less clumsy and forced. Y'know, every movie has tons of plot-holes, but you can tell a good movie from a bad one by how long it takes you to notice the plot-holes. In a good movie, you notice the plot-holes on repeat viewings. In a bad movie, you notice the plot-holes as they are happening.

[The Dork Knight]

So how did he survive enough Green K to kill the other 3?

It's because alternate universe Kryptonite doesn't affect alternate universe supermen

Basically if it's not from your universe, it isn't hurting you

See also, Batman vs Earth 2 Superman in Infinite Crisis

[The Chou Lives]

It's because alternate universe Kryptonite doesn't affect alternate universe supermen

Basically if it's not from your universe, it isn't hurting you

See also, Batman vs Earth 2 Superman in Infinite Crisis

Interesting! That is a nice plot twist in there.

[Nalla_The_Black]

I'm wondering why everyone holds the Zod-Killing against MoS Clark when comic Clark killed all 3 Kryptonians? Also, where does the "Zod was powerless" thing come from, since he was still on Earth (whose atmosphere was what was giving the Kryptonians there powers in this movie) and had just been heat visioning the crap out of the landscape moments prior?

I mean, Kryptonite and Red Sun draining are not things in this continuity, and the only readily available source of Kryptonian-depowering atmosphere got dropped into the Phantom Zone by Law & Order : SVU's Detective Stabler beforehand, so there's no way to feasibly contain Zod, and Clark only stood a chance against Zod because Zod had next to 0 experience with his powers. Killing him was pretty much the only way to keep Zod from slaughtering humanity shortly thereafter, and it clearly toe Clark up to do so, just like in the comics.

People tend to forget that Comic Clark would never kill a human, evil or not, or an innocent alien, but never showed a real issue with killing super-aliens that could fight on his level. He was never happy about it, and it was always his absolute last resort, but he would do it if he had to. In addition to your above mentioned example, he's willingly killed Doomsday, tried on multiple occasions to destroy Darkseid (he never succeeded, but intent is intent), and, correct me if I'm wrong but, he willingly destroied one of the Monguls.

[The Dork Knight]

True, but the times just seem less clumsy and forced. Y'know, every movie has tons of plot-holes, but you can tell a good movie from a bad one by how long it takes you to notice the plot-holes. In a good movie, you notice the plot-holes on repeat viewings. In a bad movie, you notice the plot-holes as they are happening.

So what is the plot hole acccording to you in MoS?

Other than letting his father die I mean

[The Dork Knight]

People tend to forget that Comic Clark would never kill a human, evil or not, or an innocent alien, but never showed a real issue with killing super-aliens that could fight on his level. He was never happy about it, and it was always his absolute last resort, but he would do it if he had to. In addition to your above mentioned example, he's willingly killed Doomsday, tried on multiple occasions to destroy Darkseid (he never succeeded, but intent is intent), and, correct me if I'm wrong but, he willingly destroied one of the Monguls.

He hasn't killed Mongul ever, and I don't recall him ever attempting to kill Darkseid either before Final Crisis

[Powerboy]

Exactly, and it really bothers me what people see as "realistic" these days. If life were that bad, the suicide rates would be higher...maybe even extinction-level.

I too am often bothered when people see only negative dark stuff as realistic. But, in this case, it IS realistic. This is what would happen if you had a super fight in a city with buildings toppling. It is what happened in the Avengers movie but they just sidestepped it by not showing it. It is what would have happened in Superman II. I like the point someone mad a few posts ago. Our culture is changed by the events that occur in it. In a culture that has gone through the tragedy of 9/11/ 2001, there is a certain inability to avoid some ugly realities even in a fantasy. And even in MoS, they didn't really show people killed that I recall but they showed far more of the real pain and devastation than what they showed in, say, the Avengers. I think the Avengers did a better job of showing the aftermath and people coming together. They emphasized the positive aspects such as they were and played down the tragedy. MoS didn't hide as much from the tragedy. I think the dislike, even sometimes sheer hatred, of this movie has everything to do with tone and with it's being Superman.

The last part which everybody knows about now. Well, again, yeah, he should have just let those people be killed. Or, more to the point of what people I think really are disturbed by, he should have gotten an escapism free pass and never had to make such a hard decision. He should have been able to pull whatever level of power he needed out of his um nether regions and never had to face any level of failure regarding something like that or had to live with making a real decision and a hard one in a fantasy. I am waxing sarcastic, of course. But I really believe that the crux of this is that it struck levels that diminished its effectiveness as pure escapism for a lot of people.

[Nalla_The_Black]

I could be wrong about the Mongul thing, but as for Darkseid, he's tried to fight him to the finish. I know I said Comic before, and I'll try and find some examples, but a great example is in the Justice League episode Twilight. At the begining, Superman is more than willing to let Darkseid and Brainiac destroy eachother, and was only barely talked out of it by Batman. By the end of it, Superman was willing to sacrfice himself in the explosion of Brainiac's core to ensure that Darkseid died as well.

[The Chou Lives]

I personally think MOS was because Superman is deep down a escape fantasy. What would you do with his powers minus the weaknesses kind of deal.

MOS shows that in reality, being Superman sill will have reasons it will not be a escapist fantasy.

Like the fact your alien brethren come back only to discover they do not care for the people who fostered you, let alone you, and fighting someone of your level will give you moral dilemmas, especially with the weaker, softer human beings around.

Marvel did what they did, because their hqs is NY, and they even did a 9/11 comic book, so they know the pulse of the people is not to focus on the loss of life, but seeing everyone come together in the face of crisis.

While instead letting the crisis define them.

And yeah I tihnk it's going derialed now so I'll say this.

If i were Clark? I would have tossed him into the dman tthing.

[The Dork Knight]

I could be wrong about the Mongul thing, but as for Darkseid, he's tried to fight him to the finish. I know I said Comic before, and I'll try and find some examples, but a great example is in the Justice League episode Twilight. At the begining, Superman is more than willing to let Darkseid and Brainiac destroy eachother, and was only barely talked out of it by Batman. By the end of it, Superman was willing to sacrfice himself in the explosion of Brainiac's core to ensure that Darseid died as well.

Ah but the cartoon, as great as it was, didn't exactly stick to the comic scripts down to the last detail

The angriest he has been at Darkseid was when Darkseid brainwashed him to kill hundreds of civilians ( hunger dogs) in Apokolips. He attacked Darkseid with fury, but intent to kill was not shown in any manner

Then we have the time Darkseid seemingly vapourised Supergirl, and he beat him up and took him to the source wall to leave him with "all the other failures in the universe", which was essentially an attempt at life imprisonment , but this being comics, obviously didnt stick

So it was not until Final Crisis , when Darkseid was already dead and dragging along the rest of the multiverse with him, that Superman went for the final solution.

Singing

[Yeoman]

It's because alternate universe Kryptonite doesn't affect alternate universe supermen

Basically if it's not from your universe, it isn't hurting you

The Zero Hour issue of Suberboy, Kon-El/Conner is completely immune to Kryptonite from that exact universe. Also, Clark had a lead canister between him and the Kryptonite, while they were right in front of it, so he had less exposure.

Finally, the issue isn't that Clark killed Zod. Frankly, to me it's barely an issue to me. Clark shows a stunning lack of respect for life in so many other ways throughout the film. But if it is an issue, the issues are:

1) Sure, Clark had no choice in that situation, but the writers did.

2) The scene is poorly written. Clark freaks the hell out over killing Zod, despite an unwillingness to kill having never been brought up, and his being fine with being complicit in a plan that killed every other surviving member of his race.

[Nalla_The_Black]

Okay, I suppose I could be wrong about Darkseid as well, but he has killed Zod in the past, he he did kill Doomsday.

[Nalla_The_Black]

1) Sure, Clark had no choice in that situation, but the writers did.

2) The scene is poorly written. Clark freaks the hell out over killing Zod, despite an unwillingness to kill having never been brought up, and his being fine with being complicit in a plan that killed every other surviving member of his race.

I see what you're saying, but at the same time there is a big difference between signing off on a plan that you won't actually have to pull the trigger on (that was Hamilton and Stabler's job), and killing a man with your bare hands.

[The Dork Knight]

The Zero Hour issue of Suberboy, Kon-El/Conner is completely immune to Kryptonite from that exact universe. Also, Clark had a lead canister between him and the Kryptonite, while they were right in front of it, so he had less exposure.

I don't think exposure is even an issue with alternate universe Kryptonite. It just doesn't affect people from other universes

Finally, the issue isn't that Clark killed Zod. Frankly, to me it's barely an issue to me. Clark shows a stunning lack of respect for life in so many other ways throughout the film. But if it is an issue, the issues are:

1) Sure, Clark had no choice in that situation, but the writers did.

True but they were going for a darker film, so it isn't necessarily the worst thing to have the hero kill a mass murderer and later show remorse for it

2) The scene is poorly written. Clark freaks the hell out over killing Zod, despite an unwillingness to kill having never been brought up, and his being fine with being complicit in a plan that killed every other surviving member of his race.

I don't think they were killed. They were transported back to the Phantom Zone werent they? Which was the original punishment meted out by the Kryptonian officials

As far as unwillingness to kill goes,I don't think it's necessary to show a guy who does everything in his power to help the very people who shot and arrested him , is unwilling to kill

But yeah the scene could have been handled better. Shouting " ARRRGGHH!" doesnt really capture the emotion of the moment and the immensity of the events of the day ( not just the killing, everything else too)