Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 27 of 27
  1. #16
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,800

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I'd really like to know what comics Jim Johnson has been reading where "Namor looks out for number one, as always." Cause it certainly hasn't been in Hickman's books, where Namor has been looking out for Atlanteans and then multiple universes, while other members of the Illuminati looked after their own personal desires and morals.

    This is the first time I've seen Namor state his goal is his own survival -- which was very much out of character, even with the way Hickman has been writing him. I'm hoping this is more misdirection / a facade for dealing with Black Swan.

    I do agree with Jim Johnson about Caselli's art. It's amazing. He's great with the figures and the landscapes and the cosmic , while still able to capture emotions and expressions skillfully.
    I totally agree about Caselli. The guy is great. He can do it all, it seems.

    On Namor, I agree it seems a little inconsistent....but maybe at this point it's just the truth coming out? I don't know for sure, but he's not even on his own Earth anymore. Can he claim that he does what he does for his kingdom anymore?

    Or maybe he's speaking with Atlantis in mind? Like the royal "we" so to speak?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I agree with you in part. There's been times when Hickman is ambiguous or leaves out stuff or doesn't explain enough. I think when it leads to confusion or it's an important plot point, it's annoying. But in this case, it seems more about the reader being patient for a few pages until the point is expanded on with Reed and T'challa. Of course, that's if the Living Tribunal's skin is actually going to be used on the ark and not for another purpose.

    I'm not sure if it was necessarily the right choice here (as it's a little confusing), but it seems the way Hickman writes.
    Oh I agree it is vague. I don't think he wants us to know exactly what they're up to. All of the plans we see in this issue are only hinted at...whatever Namor and Swan are up to, whatever the Avengers plan on doing with the Tribunal, T'Challa's ark, Cyclops and the Phoenix egg....it's all done to set up these ideas. We'll see them play out soon.
    Last edited by hawkeyefan; 03-07-2015 at 12:35 AM.

  2. #17
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    The Sunless Realm
    Posts
    9,103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I totally agree about Caselli. The guy is great. He can do it all, it seems.
    He's improved from his Secret Warriors days, though, he was pretty good back then too.


    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    On Namor, I agree it seems a little inconsistent....but maybe at this point it's just the truth coming out? I don't know for sure, but he's not even on his own Earth anymore. Can he claim that he does what he does for his kingdom anymore?

    Or maybe he's speaking with Atlantis in mind? Like the royal "we" so to speak?
    I don't believe the truth for Namor all this time has been about his own survival -- there's zero evidence of that and plenty of evidence for the opposite. He's not on his own Earth presently, because it was more important for two of the Illuminati to indulge their own personal vendettas (though I'm still clueless about Black Bolt's issue with Namor), while everyone else was dealing with multi-universal destruction.

    But you bring up a good point. He is no longer in a position to protect his Atlantis and his earth. Given his experience with the Illuminati and their failures, he can foresee the imminent destruction of his world with the next Incursion. Even if that doesn't happen, he can't do anything for the 616 unless he survives long enough to get back.

    I did bring that up in the Namor Appreciation thread. I think it would have been better had Hickman had Namor say, "We will survive." It lends a level of ambiguity (he and Black Swan, or the royal we, or he and the remaining Atlanteans), yet is still true.


    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Oh I agree it is vague. I don't think he wants us to know exactly what they're up to. All of the plans we see in this issue are only hinted at...whatever Namor and Swan are up to, whatever the Avengers plan on doing with the Tribunal, T'Challa's ark, Cyclops and the Phoenix egg....it's all done to set up these ideas. We'll see them play out soon.
    I understand that. But I also understand the complaint that making the reader wait for an explanation or clarification (and Hickman has done this countless times) gets old, and can be confusing. When it results in confusion, or looks like a giant plot hole, then it may not be a good thing. When we have to wait months to find out what the other parties are doing, it's not a good thing.
    ***Namor75 Celebration Threads***

    IMPERIUS REX FOREVER

  3. #18
    Junior Member DocSpin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    247

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by misterfranklin View Post
    It's not that complicated. They're probably going to use his skin as part of the redundant shielding on the ark that T'Challa designed.
    Sure, because cannibalizing the LT makes perfect sense! And "probably" means it's obvious.
    Last edited by DocSpin; 03-07-2015 at 09:41 AM.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,800

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    He's improved from his Secret Warriors days, though, he was pretty good back then too.
    Yeah, I loved his art back then already, and he's only gotten better. He's a little less cartoony now, maybe? Less locked in to a specific style, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I don't believe the truth for Namor all this time has been about his own survival -- there's zero evidence of that and plenty of evidence for the opposite. He's not on his own Earth presently, because it was more important for two of the Illuminati to indulge their own personal vendettas (though I'm still clueless about Black Bolt's issue with Namor), while everyone else was dealing with multi-universal destruction.

    But you bring up a good point. He is no longer in a position to protect his Atlantis and his earth. Given his experience with the Illuminati and their failures, he can foresee the imminent destruction of his world with the next Incursion. Even if that doesn't happen, he can't do anything for the 616 unless he survives long enough to get back.

    I did bring that up in the Namor Appreciation thread. I think it would have been better had Hickman had Namor say, "We will survive." It lends a level of ambiguity (he and Black Swan, or the royal we, or he and the remaining Atlanteans), yet is still true.
    Well I would argue that there has been an aspect of self preservation from the start on Namor's part, but that was far from his sole concern. I believe that he would place his world and his kingdom above himself. But isn't even that a bit selfish? The other Illuminati are guilty of it too....although they didn't follow through on it.

    But I don't think that's what he was saying here. And I do think he plans on betraying the Cabal again if he gets a chance. So he's either lulling Black Swan or it was just a comment he made that means he plans on surviving along with his world and kingdom.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,895

    Default

    Black Swan and Namor are probably going to try to betray each other sooner or later. Namor doesn't really like anyone on the Cabal, and they've given him just as much reason to hate them.

    The only question is, who is going to betray who first? Black Swan knows exactly what to do, and she's dealt with Namors before, it seems.

  6. #21
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    The Sunless Realm
    Posts
    9,103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Yeah, I loved his art back then already, and he's only gotten better. He's a little less cartoony now, maybe? Less locked in to a specific style, at least.
    Secret Warriors had a cool vibe, but I agree, he's not as cartoony, and his figures are more dynamic as are his layouts.


    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Well I would argue that there has been an aspect of self preservation from the start on Namor's part, but that was far from his sole concern. I believe that he would place his world and his kingdom above himself. But isn't even that a bit selfish? The other Illuminati are guilty of it too....although they didn't follow through on it.

    But I don't think that's what he was saying here. And I do think he plans on betraying the Cabal again if he gets a chance. So he's either lulling Black Swan or it was just a comment he made that means he plans on surviving along with his world and kingdom.
    Again, when did all this alleged self-preservation aspect appear in print? He's repeatedly said, he and the other Illuminati are dead men. He sacrificed everything he believed in and was to save the universes. He even offered himself up for punishment for killing worlds, i.e. a death sentence, to take out the Cabal to help Reed with his 'don't lose' plan. And that's just on Hickman's run, and isn't getting into countless decades of Namor choosing duty and saving lives over his own. Heck, he's "died" twice to save Atlantis and others.

    The only instance of anything approaching self preservation I've seen is when he lied to the Cabal after T'challa and Black Bolt tried to kill him -- and him motivation for that could still be to survive long enough to help his planet and save lives.

    If putting your country and world above yourself is selfish, every superhero out there, as well as every military personnel, is selfish. I don't believe that is the case at all.

    Now, what the rest of the Illuminati did, putting their own personal moral well being above the lives of two universes, and the multi-verse, yes, that was selfish.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Black Swan and Namor are probably going to try to betray each other sooner or later. Namor doesn't really like anyone on the Cabal, and they've given him just as much reason to hate them.

    The only question is, who is going to betray who first? Black Swan knows exactly what to do, and she's dealt with Namors before, it seems.
    Where was that stated or implied? IIRC, it was said that Black Swan had only dealt with hero types, not kings.

    Given that Hickman had Namor abandoned her previously, and Black Swan has killed off her previous ally, I'd have to agree, that it's only a matter of time before they double cross each other. I wish it was otherwise, but that's not how Hickman is writing them.
    ***Namor75 Celebration Threads***

    IMPERIUS REX FOREVER

  7. #22
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,800

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Secret Warriors had a cool vibe, but I agree, he's not as cartoony, and his figures are more dynamic as are his layouts.

    Again, when did all this alleged self-preservation aspect appear in print? He's repeatedly said, he and the other Illuminati are dead men. He sacrificed everything he believed in and was to save the universes. He even offered himself up for punishment for killing worlds, i.e. a death sentence, to take out the Cabal to help Reed with his 'don't lose' plan. And that's just on Hickman's run, and isn't getting into countless decades of Namor choosing duty and saving lives over his own. Heck, he's "died" twice to save Atlantis and others.

    The only instance of anything approaching self preservation I've seen is when he lied to the Cabal after T'challa and Black Bolt tried to kill him -- and him motivation for that could still be to survive long enough to help his planet and save lives.

    If putting your country and world above yourself is selfish, every superhero out there, as well as every military personnel, is selfish. I don't believe that is the case at all.

    Now, what the rest of the Illuminati did, putting their own personal moral well being above the lives of two universes, and the multi-verse, yes, that was selfish.
    Why not blow up their own Earth instead of another? That is an aspect of selfishness. Namor holds his kingdom in greater importance than T'Challa's or anyone else's. That is an aspect of selfishness. It is understandable, but that doesn't change that it is self serving.

    Self preservation at the expense of others is selfish.

    Please don't think I am judging him for it...I fully understand and I would likely behave in the same way.

  8. #23
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    The Sunless Realm
    Posts
    9,103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Why not blow up their own Earth instead of another? That is an aspect of selfishness. Namor holds his kingdom in greater importance than T'Challa's or anyone else's. That is an aspect of selfishness. It is understandable, but that doesn't change that it is self serving.

    Self preservation at the expense of others is selfish.

    Please don't think I am judging him for it...I fully understand and I would likely behave in the same way.
    Because blowing up your own earth is hampering your abilities to save other universes?

    Obviously, we have a very different definition of selfishness. I've never heard anyone define people who fight for their country or others as being selfish.

    And even by your definition, Namor is the least selfish of the Illuminati and Marvel's superheroes, having saved 15 other universes. He's certainly not laying claim to the resource of the Living Tribunal's corpse to build an ark to save the _human_ species, and leaving the rest of the universe's gazillion of species ignorant of the threat and outside of the ark to die in the universal end.

    Namor has risked his kingdom for the greater good and for peace plenty of times. He did so at least twice in this story, by giving the Wakandans time to rebuild and then offering a peace treaty -- both times it ended up trashing his people. He even did it the last time Wakanda started a war with Atlantis by 'surrendering' to end the war, because T'challa was an idiot. He actually blew up his own city to prevent a war with Stark and SHIELD which would have destroyed the planet. This idea that Namor is selfish or doesn't have an unselfish global view is not supported by anything in print.
    ***Namor75 Celebration Threads***

    IMPERIUS REX FOREVER

  9. #24
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,800

    Default

    I'm not bashing Namor or defending the Illuminati. As I said, they were guilty of it as well.

    I do think there is selfishness associated with placing one's needs over others. Again, I don't fault anyone for that...I think it's human nature.

    And Namor's past actions are what they are....he has certainly been heroic in the past. Again, I'm not trashing the character....the current circumstances are not like anything he's faced before.

  10. #25
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,061

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I don't think there's enough skin to protect the billions of everyone.
    Well, there's always a chance that slivers of his skin can be genetically implanted in everyone until it runs out and those who don't get will just be ass out...

  11. #26
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    1,553

    Default

    They're gonna fail though. So will the ark.

  12. #27
    Member GallowGlass's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Neverwhere
    Posts
    321

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dog View Post
    I don't know what a "normal" comic book is, but it sounds terrible.
    Yeah, I'm not interested in normal comics either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Reed View Post
    I'm just getting very tired of how huge this whole thing has become. I liked Avengers so much more when they numbered in the teens and they fought things that I could understand, not all of this cosmic level crap.
    How long has it taken you to get tired of it? It's been pretty massive from the get go. I love this whole thing, one giant story. After the whole Secret Wars thing it'll be nice and ready for a new writer to come in.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •