Master of the Mystic Arts: Doctor Strange Appreciation

[Tulku]

Very new member. This is my very first post.

I miss the old days Dr Strange and his cloak. The only change I like about his costume is it's not that the collars are not too high anymore.

Some people said that Stephen is reincarnation of Agamotto but I've never read that theory any "Dr Strange" comic. Is that only a fan theory?

I miss those days, too. The one, true Cloak of Levitation was an essential part of the character. For it not to be present is a little like Captain America not having his shield.

As for the "theory" that Doc is a reincarnation of Agamotto, it is definitely NOT in any comic book. Actually, there are a number of issues where Doc meets and chats with Agamotto.

[lita]

I miss those days, too. The one, true Cloak of Levitation was an essential part of the character. For it not to be present is a little like Captain America not having his shield.

I agree. I also miss Doc using magic and spells. He even didn't use the orb and eye of Agamotto anymore but I presume all those relics are gone since the New Avengers.

As for the "theory" that Doc is a reincarnation of Agamotto, it is definitely NOT in any comic book. Actually, there are a number of issues where Doc meets and chats with Agamotto.

Thanks for answering that.
Yes, I remember he went to chat with Agamotto who pretended to be a caterpillar. Didn't Agamotto also try to possess/discredit/kill Strange (I'm not too clear which one) and take the eye of Agamotto from him in the New Avengers Vol 2? I don't think he would do something like that to his reincarnation.

[MRP]

I miss those days, too. The one, true Cloak of Levitation was an essential part of the character. For it not to be present is a little like Captain America not having his shield.

As for the "theory" that Doc is a reincarnation of Agamotto, it is definitely NOT in any comic book. Actually, there are a number of issues where Doc meets and chats with Agamotto.

eh, some of my favorite Ditko/Lee Doc stories are from before he got the cloak of levitation, so I don't think it's an essential part of the character, he didn't start with it, but it had become an expected part of it, but like any tool, it also had become a crutch and at tmes a deus ex machina escape hatch for writers who couldn't figure anything else for Doc to do to get out of a tight spot.

-M

[Tulku]

That's a fair comment. Every character risks being a victim of lazy writing: like Hawkeye just "by chance" having the one perfect trick arrow for the situation (one never seen before and never seen again) or Iron Man just happening to have a previously undisclosed gizmo in his armor to save the day.

But the solution to this sort of sloppy writing is not to decide that Hawkeye has no arrows or Iron Man's suit is just a medieval suit of armor (or Doc has no Cloak of Levitation and can do no magic). The solution is for the editorial staff to crack down on the writers to stay within certain iron-clad restraints.

For example, I have often thought that the number and types of arrows Hawkeye carries should be strictly defined. That doesn't mean he can't prepare a special arrow if he knows what he is facing, but it won't be there just by chance. In Doc's case, a similar limitation on spells (shield of the Seraphim, the crimson bands, the images of Ikonn, a few other common ones) and, if one needs to have him uncork a "super-spell" it should be preceded by Doc studying and researching such a special--not just one he happened to commit to memory for no particular reason. Similarly,the Cloak should be limited in its acceptable usages--to levitate, for example. That is the answer to abuses of uses of the Cloak--not getting rid of it.

[MRP]

That's a fair comment. Every character risks being a victim of lazy writing: like Hawkeye just "by chance" having the one perfect trick arrow for the situation (one never seen before and never seen again) or Iron Man just happening to have a previously undisclosed gizmo in his armor to save the day.

But the solution to this sort of sloppy writing is not to decide that Hawkeye has no arrows or Iron Man's suit is just a medieval suit of armor (or Doc has no Cloak of Levitation and can do no magic). The solution is for the editorial staff to crack down on the writers to stay within certain iron-clad restraints.

For example, I have often thought that the number and types of arrows Hawkeye carries should be strictly defined. That doesn't mean he can't prepare a special arrow if he knows what he is facing, but it won't be there just by chance. In Doc's case, a similar limitation on spells (shield of the Seraphim, the crimson bands, the images of Ikonn, a few other common ones) and, if one needs to have him uncork a "super-spell" it should be preceded by Doc studying and researching such a special--not just one he happened to commit to memory for no particular reason. Similarly,the Cloak should be limited in its acceptable usages--to levitate, for example. That is the answer to abuses of uses of the Cloak--not getting rid of it.

But Doc is a not a character like Hawkeye, Iron Man or Captain America where the power is in the tools. In the early stories it was the amulet, then the cloak or the orb or whatever, Doc has tools sure, but the power comes from the discipline and training he received from the Ancient One, the "magic" if you will has to be internal not externally. He has to constantly strike to prove worthy of the mantle, not just rely on tools otherwise you get the Doc of those early Defenders issues where all he did was fly around in the cloak and shoot bolts of bedevilment and acted and looked like just another generic super-hero and getting lost in the crowd.

Personally I don't think Doc should have a super-hero union suit at all, not even the robes of meditation and cloak from the early days, and just use civilian clothes unless there is some ceremonial reason why he is wearing them at a particular time, but not all the time. But, Doc is IP and he has to have a recognizable look to market (the same reason why when Marvel had Conan he had to wear a fur diaper all the time instead of dressing for the occasion as he did in the Howard originals, the marketing department needs a marketable look for each character to sell and license it. Except, that's a terrible story reason for Doc to go around in pajamas and a cape all the time and is not essential to the character at all, essential to the business of publishing the character sure, bit no to the character itself, and really is a convention imposed upon the character because of the medium his stories are told in.

-M

[Sutekh]

In Doc's case, a similar limitation on spells (shield of the Seraphim, the crimson bands, the images of Ikonn, a few other common ones) and, if one needs to have him uncork a "super-spell" it should be preceded by Doc studying and researching such a special--not just one he happened to commit to memory for no particular reason. Similarly,the Cloak should be limited in its acceptable usages--to levitate, for example. That is the answer to abuses of uses of the Cloak--not getting rid of it.

I very much agree with the concept that Dr. Strange should be using spells that he's well-known for using, like Bolts of Bedevilment/Balthak,, Flames of the Faltines, Shields of the Seraphim, Crimson Bands of Cytorrak, Winds of Watoomb, Images of Ikonn, etc. and not just waving his hands and doing random crap ex machina (and, inexplicably, *not* being able to do random crap ex machina in his very next appearance, because of crap writing).

And *other* spellcasting characters in the Marvel Universe should be following suit, and also not doing random crap. Additionally, characters who *aren't* the Sorcerer Supreme, IMO, shouldn't be tossing out the same spells at the same power level as Dr. Strange. As I have always understood it, to use these sorts of invocations, you have to contact and petition extradimensional entities, such as those named above, and while not *all* magic is invocations, the rest comes from 'personal power' and would absolutely murder a spellcaster who tried to do anything major with it (as in, he'd kill himself trying to draw enough 'personal power' from his own life-force to blow down a building or stop a car or whatever). Obviously spellcasters with a special source of personal power, like Hellstrom or Magik, would be exceptions, as she can draw on Limbo and he can call upon infernal hellfire to fuel himself.

The Sorcerer Supreme seems to have a special carte blanche from the Octessence, etc. (Cytorrak, Watoomb, and other non-Octessence entities like the Vishanti, Seraphim, Faltines, etc.) to draw on their power willy-nilly, but I don't feel like it makes as much narrative sense for those same figures to just be handing out power for free to any schmuck who invokes them. Some sort of agreement or quid-pro-quo seems more appropriate for someone *else* to be calling up the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak ('cause Cytorrak isn't in this for his health, you want to play, you gots to pay, and he's got specific things he might want you to do for him in the mortal world before he agrees to let you borrow some of his power from time to time...).

I feel like it would help highlight how special it is to be Sorcerer Supreme, and to get all these perks as part of the package of accepting responsibility for protecting the world from incursions from other realms, to show other magicians having to work harder to make agreements with Watoomb or whatever to earn the right to fly on his winds or blow people away with them.

And if those special pacts require characters to do questionable things for their extra-dimensional patrons with their centuries-long plots? There's your story, right there, built into the mechanics of the setting and it's magic.

Similarly, Dr. Strange generally taps into magic from the less nasty of the supernatural denizens of the Marvel Universe. I'd love for an evil magician to tap into some of the less pleasant powers, like D'Spayre, Mephisto, Nightmare, Dormammu, the Great Beasts (from Alpha Flight), Set, Chthon, Loki, etc. A spellcaster that *only* used spells based on Invoking the Great Beasts (Torches of Tolomaq to create fire, Corruption of Kariooq to rot matter or animate zombies, etc.) could be super-thematic, and tied neatly into the setting. Similarly, an evil magician who doesn't get freebie access to the Images of Ikonn, or feel like making a pact with Ikonn, because he's not a Sorcerer Supreme, might instead call upon a similar illusion-spell called 'The Lies of Loki,' which is great for mischief, but has it's own downside, in that it attracts the attention of that Trickster (who gladly let you call upon his power, but left the price unclear...).

Both standardizing magic, and also tying it into the wider Marvel Universe, IMO, would go a long way to making Dr. Strange cooler than ever (and seeing him written consistently, and not so much as the guy who can either do anything, or nothing, depending on the whims of the writer this week).

[Indian Ink]

I don't think the present 'cost of magic' has been done very well. I can't see how Strange being unable to eat normal food and being constantly ill advances any story line or tasteful restriction on the I can do anything all the time use of magic. It just seems like a change in style more than anything. His satchel full of tricks seem not much better than I'll do what ever my lazy writing requires he to be able to do at his fingertips except now I'm just having him just (literally) pulling them out of the bag instead. It's like Batman utility belt.

I DO however like the notion of greater freedom in types of spells being cast than just the set of half a dozen or so of the old standards. I think that part of the delight of magic is the anything could happen nature of it. Turning bullets into butterflies is not something I'd like to see forbidden. But there should either be some form of prep or payment involved or some spells become unreliable. That would help explain with Strange can do something one month but not the next. Some spells might require that Strange gives prayers to a god for three hours, or another might turn up in the middle of a situation trying to make a bargain. God X; " I demand sacrifice for services!!" Dr Strange; "I don't do blood magic!" God X; "Oh not that! but I wonder if you could get me a copy of Martzy's Mozart violin sonata?" Strange: "What!!" (In the middle of fighting off Mordo.) God X: "I'm starting a vinyl collection." Strange: "OK, OK!!!"

[Strangefan]

The thing I've hated more than anything is how the role of Sorcerer Supreme has become less about knowledge, and more about trappings. If you have the tools, or the house, somehow that makes you able to use these high level spells. That is something I liked in the movie, Strange had to learn a "litany" of spells even to use the Eye. Even if you possess it, shouldn't mean you can use it. It takes training, and a soul that is dedicated to the Light. So sure, I really see Loki being able to use the Eye, in this current Marvel. The Vishanti have really lowered their standards!!

If there is a price it should be more about negative effects on the world. So sorcerers dedicated to the light want to maintain a balance and respect for the life within the world, whereas evil doesn't give a crap. So Strange only uses certain spells on Earth, and saves his big time spells for interdimensional fights. I don't know why finding limitations for the SS that aren't just depowering him/her is so difficult to discover. Or involve eating live items with eyeballs. If anything, you would think he could only eat broth and rice, or was vegan. It takes a lot of energy for the body to break items down, and if he got sick, you don't eat weird food, you eat easy to digest food. Whatever. Writing about someone using an ax is easier than coming up with a thoughtful way of beating a more powerful foe. I think all these new writers should go back and read about the character, and see all the ways he has used power, instead of trying to reinvent him in their own image each time. It would be nice for readers who have loved the character for a long time.

It would be nice to see magic actually used in a book about magic, instead of Strange going over and over how he has almost no power. I like the idea of him exploring nature based magic, instead of his usual extra-dimensional deity summoning, everything in life should have inherent magic, IMHO, and while it might not be as spectacular as using god powers, there could still be a sense of wonder.

So many possibilities, and yet all writers can do is depower and have him bemoan how arrogance he was, and how he has learned his lesson, rinse and repeat.

[lita]

I DO however like the notion of greater freedom in types of spells being cast than just the set of half a dozen or so of the old standards. I think that part of the delight of magic is the anything could happen nature of it. Turning bullets into butterflies is not something I'd like to see forbidden. But there should either be some form of prep or payment involved or some spells become unreliable. That would help explain with Strange can do something one month but not the next. Some spells might require that Strange gives prayers to a god for three hours, or another might turn up in the middle of a situation trying to make a bargain. God X; " I demand sacrifice for services!!" Dr Strange; "I don't do blood magic!" God X; "Oh not that! but I wonder if you could get me a copy of Martzy's Mozart violin sonata?" Strange: "What!!" (In the middle of fighting off Mordo.) God X: "I'm starting a vinyl collection." Strange: "OK, OK!!!"

I like the idea of this. That will make the comic much more interesting than the depowered storylines.

The thing I've hated more than anything is how the role of Sorcerer Supreme has become less about knowledge, and more about trappings. If you have the tools, or the house, somehow that makes you able to use these high level spells. That is something I liked in the movie, Strange had to learn a "litany" of spells even to use the Eye. Even if you possess it, shouldn't mean you can use it. It takes training, and a soul that is dedicated to the Light. So sure, I really see Loki being able to use the Eye, in this current Marvel. The Vishanti have really lowered their standards!!

Yes. The Sorcerer Supreme should be bestowed to someone special. Actually that made me wonder why Salome was a Sorcerer Supreme for a while. So as long as someone can wield more powers than the current Supreme, he/she will be the next Supreme.

If there is a price it should be more about negative effects on the world. So sorcerers dedicated to the light want to maintain a balance and respect for the life within the world, whereas evil doesn't give a crap. So Strange only uses certain spells on Earth, and saves his big time spells for interdimensional fights. I don't know why finding limitations for the SS that aren't just depowering him/her is so difficult to discover. Or involve eating live items with eyeballs. If anything, you would think he could only eat broth and rice, or was vegan. It takes a lot of energy for the body to break items down, and if he got sick, you don't eat weird food, you eat easy to digest food. Whatever. Writing about someone using an ax is easier than coming up with a thoughtful way of beating a more powerful foe. I think all these new writers should go back and read about the character, and see all the ways he has used power, instead of trying to reinvent him in their own image each time. It would be nice for readers who have loved the character for a long time.

It would be nice to see magic actually used in a book about magic, instead of Strange going over and over how he has almost no power. I like the idea of him exploring nature based magic, instead of his usual extra-dimensional deity summoning, everything in life should have inherent magic, IMHO, and while it might not be as spectacular as using god powers, there could still be a sense of wonder.

So many possibilities, and yet all writers can do is depower and have him bemoan how arrogance he was, and how he has learned his lesson, rinse and repeat.

Yes. It seems they don't know what to do with Strange. I wonder whether they receive fans' suggestion or at least ask the current writers to read the old comics.

[King_Thor13]

There are good points here about the invocation of magic. I do wish that some of the most important magical relics were used more often, and there are a vast number that can be used. In addition, there are renowned spells that we know Doctor Strange and other spellcasters have used (Flames of the Faltine, Shields of the Seraphim, Crimson Bands of Cytorrak, Winds of Watoomb, Images of Ikonn, Mists of Munnopor, Mists of Morpheus etc.) that should be used regularly, along with newly created spells given names. And obviously some of these come from different fields of magic (witchcraft, voodoo or chaos magic for example) that would be available to some spellcasters and not others. Doctor Strange, as the Sorcerer Supreme, should be able to access all forms of magic.


Just as another tangent, would y'all be interested in seeing Clea or Topaz become regular characters in his solo title? I haven't been reading the current run on a regular basis as I keep losing interest, and the random flatscan that tags along bores me. Just curious if anyone else is interested in seeing a sorceress making regular appearances alongside the Sorcerer Supreme

[MRP]

For those interested in "the magic of Dr. Strange" especially in the earlier books I recommend checking out The Lesser Booksof the Vishanti, compiled by former Eclipse editor catherine yronwode, I've mentioned it in this thread before and provided the link, but it's been a while, so it can be found here: http://www.luckymojo.com/vishanti.html

This is a companion reference resource for most of the Doc stories from the 60s up through the early 2000s (up through the Marvel Knights FLightof Bones mini and Doc's appearances in the Marvel Knights series from 2000-2001.

It also explores other facets of the Doc mythos form that era.

-M

[Tulku]

The Sorcerer Supreme should be bestowed to someone special. Actually that made me wonder why Salome was a Sorcerer Supreme for a while. So as long as someone can wield more powers than the current Supreme, he/she will be the next Supreme.

Once upon a time there was a comment in the stories (and maybe it was in the Dr. Strange/Dr. Doom graphic novel?) that the title of Sorcerer Supreme was "one that others might bestow but nobody can claim." That has been ignored in more recent years where others (such as Salami) claim the title for themselves because they think they deserve it. That gets the concept backwards. Dr. Strange went some time clinging to the "Master of the Mystic Arts" title even though others were acknowledging him as Supreme. Also, one needs to be "supreme" not just in raw power, but in wisdom. The title is meant to be something special, not just slapped on whoever seems the strongest at any given point.

MRP, thanks for the reminder of cat yronwode's Lesser Books--even writers in the "Marvel Bullpen" admitted they relied on them when writing Doc back in those days. In many ways, I think that helped Doc stay so consistent (and so good) for so many years.

[Lee Stone]

For those interested in "the magic of Dr. Strange" especially in the earlier books I recommend checking out The Lesser Booksof the Vishanti, compiled by former Eclipse editor catherine yronwode, I've mentioned it in this thread before and provided the link, but it's been a while, so it can be found here: http://www.luckymojo.com/vishanti.html

This is a companion reference resource for most of the Doc stories from the 60s up through the early 2000s (up through the Marvel Knights FLightof Bones mini and Doc's appearances in the Marvel Knights series from 2000-2001.

It also explores other facets of the Doc mythos form that era.

-M

Thanks for that link. (Bookmarked!)

And I'll echo everyone else.
Wish we could get a Doctor Strange that isn't constantly being de-powered so writers can write him. I see there's a new writer and the solicits say he's being depowered again. Didn't he just get de-powered when Aaron started?
If the writers need to de-power him to understand him, then they don't really have any interest in writing 'Dr. Strange'. Let them go write Batman or Daredevil.

I also hope a future writer conveniently forgets the 'can't eat real food' or 'magic has a price'. If not for those two things, I probably would've enjoyed Aaron's run enough to still be reading.

BTW...
I can't remember if I've asked this before or not...
But as I'm still waiting for the Roger Stern run of Doctor Strange to hit Comixology...

I've been debating once again on David Sexton's Mystic Arcana stuff.
As someone whose basis for Marvel Magic is the Roger Stern run in the mid-80s and the Realms of Magic sourcebook from the TSR rpg (which I understand was based mostly on input from Stern), how well does Mystic Arcana fit with that?

[MaximoffTrash]

I very much agree with the concept that Dr. Strange should be using spells that he's well-known for using, like Bolts of Bedevilment/Balthak,, Flames of the Faltines, Shields of the Seraphim, Crimson Bands of Cytorrak, Winds of Watoomb, Images of Ikonn, etc. and not just waving his hands and doing random crap ex machina (and, inexplicably, *not* being able to do random crap ex machina in his very next appearance, because of crap writing).

And *other* spellcasting characters in the Marvel Universe should be following suit, and also not doing random crap. Additionally, characters who *aren't* the Sorcerer Supreme, IMO, shouldn't be tossing out the same spells at the same power level as Dr. Strange. As I have always understood it, to use these sorts of invocations, you have to contact and petition extradimensional entities, such as those named above, and while not *all* magic is invocations, the rest comes from 'personal power' and would absolutely murder a spellcaster who tried to do anything major with it (as in, he'd kill himself trying to draw enough 'personal power' from his own life-force to blow down a building or stop a car or whatever). Obviously spellcasters with a special source of personal power, like Hellstrom or Magik, would be exceptions, as she can draw on Limbo and he can call upon infernal hellfire to fuel himself.

The Sorcerer Supreme seems to have a special carte blanche from the Octessence, etc. (Cytorrak, Watoomb, and other non-Octessence entities like the Vishanti, Seraphim, Faltines, etc.) to draw on their power willy-nilly, but I don't feel like it makes as much narrative sense for those same figures to just be handing out power for free to any schmuck who invokes them. Some sort of agreement or quid-pro-quo seems more appropriate for someone *else* to be calling up the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak ('cause Cytorrak isn't in this for his health, you want to play, you gots to pay, and he's got specific things he might want you to do for him in the mortal world before he agrees to let you borrow some of his power from time to time...).

I feel like it would help highlight how special it is to be Sorcerer Supreme, and to get all these perks as part of the package of accepting responsibility for protecting the world from incursions from other realms, to show other magicians having to work harder to make agreements with Watoomb or whatever to earn the right to fly on his winds or blow people away with them.

And if those special pacts require characters to do questionable things for their extra-dimensional patrons with their centuries-long plots? There's your story, right there, built into the mechanics of the setting and it's magic.

Similarly, Dr. Strange generally taps into magic from the less nasty of the supernatural denizens of the Marvel Universe. I'd love for an evil magician to tap into some of the less pleasant powers, like D'Spayre, Mephisto, Nightmare, Dormammu, the Great Beasts (from Alpha Flight), Set, Chthon, Loki, etc. A spellcaster that *only* used spells based on Invoking the Great Beasts (Torches of Tolomaq to create fire, Corruption of Kariooq to rot matter or animate zombies, etc.) could be super-thematic, and tied neatly into the setting. Similarly, an evil magician who doesn't get freebie access to the Images of Ikonn, or feel like making a pact with Ikonn, because he's not a Sorcerer Supreme, might instead call upon a similar illusion-spell called 'The Lies of Loki,' which is great for mischief, but has it's own downside, in that it attracts the attention of that Trickster (who gladly let you call upon his power, but left the price unclear...).

Both standardizing magic, and also tying it into the wider Marvel Universe, IMO, would go a long way to making Dr. Strange cooler than ever (and seeing him written consistently, and not so much as the guy who can either do anything, or nothing, depending on the whims of the writer this week).

I like your idea, but personally I think Octessence should be more neutral players.(I mean they almost decimated 7/8 of Earth's population, they are not chaotic evil like Shuma-Gorath or Chthon, but not benevolent one like Gaea, Oshtur either.)
I think it's more like Stephen is supreme in Vishanti-related magic, not necessarily with those in the middle ground.

[darewithpeace]

I like how trippy he is