Justice League #30 SPOILERS On 2 Aspects of the New 52 Wonder Woman

[Blacksun]

I don't see things the same way here. Azz and Johns Wonder Woman are two sides of the same coin when it comes to violence. I could not see Soule, Perez, Jimenez, or Simone's Wonder Woman reacting like the panel with Diana choking Zola.

Soule more pacifist than Azzarello? she just killed a monster when all she needed was put him inside the doom's door with the lasso. Soule WW is really quick to enter a fight.
WW with Zola was a precaution, if she used her full force zola would be dead. She didn't engaged in a violent act first to ask questions later.

[Silvanus]

I don't see things the same way here. Azz and Johns Wonder Woman are two sides of the same coin when it comes to violence. I could not see Soule, Perez, Jimenez, or Simone's Wonder Woman reacting like the panel with Diana choking Zola.

I thought the question was whether Azz's portrayal is different form Johns'--not whether it's the same as Siomne's or anyone else's. And that defensive reflex when someone disturbs her sleep doesn't make her the same as Johns' Wonder Woman, who sometimes seems consciously eager to be violent. Look at the followup to that scene in WW 1 in which she grabs ola by the neck; as soon as Diana realizes she's not being attacked--which is almost right away--there's a very deep look of concern and tenderness in her eyes as she lets Zola go unharmed and starts to find out how she can help. And then she goes off to face the monsters without bringing a lethal weapon--something Johns' version surely wouldn't do, since she always has a sword at her side. She does pick up and use a sword on the spot, when Zola is being abducted, but that's just the difference; Azzarello's Wonder Woman uses violence when she reasonably finds that it is required and keeps her violent side "cuffed up" (literally and figuratively) the rest of the time, but Johns' version acts and (especially) talks like she actually desires to unleash her violent side. Sccasionally, as when she infers that the Talons are not human so she's free to use the sword, she almost seems to be looking for an excuse. Assuming Johns' Wonder Woman met those centaurs and realized that they weren't human, she might have taken off the head rather than an arm. Moreover, it's hard to think of times when the JL Wonder Woman has abstained from violence when a normal person might have fought or killed--like when she had the destroyer of her family (Hera) helpless before her, or when she was being pelted by a storm of blades (by Siracca), or when she could have killed the First Born, who had just killed her friend and had put her in the position of having to kill her mentor. I don't go so far as saying that they are two separate characters, but at least, I think they're two substantially different takes on the same character, especially in their attitudes towards violence (as well as compassion and mercy).

[Dr. Poison]

Johns' WW has always acted violent. Azzarello's WW has this one scene and... what else?
Johns' WW flat out says she kills her enemies and Azzarello's left a monster like First Born alive.

So i really, really dont think they're the same.

What else has Azz's WW done that's violent? Let's see:


1.) Dismembered the minotaurs Hera created.

2.) Stabbed Strife with a broken glass in the middle of a crowded nightclub when Strife was not physically attacking anyone.

3.) Punched Aleka for talking down to her.

4.) Put Orion's junk in a vice-grip after he made some dirty comments to her and slapped her butt.

5.) Impaled & killed WAres in order to injure the First Born.

6.) Called Strife a b_tch after she killed Strife's brother.


Johns WW did not flat out say she kills her enemies. She said she "deals with them" which could mean many things besides killing. Perhaps she reforms them?

[Blacksun]

1.) Dismembered the minotaurs Hera created.

she used non-lethal force first.

2.) Stabbed Strife with a broken glass in the middle of a crowded nightclub when Strife was not physically attacking anyone.

first strife had many amazons killing each other. WW was under heavy stress after the revelations, and strife threatened Zola. If this was johns or soule I would expect some serious stabbing,

3.) Punched Aleka for talking down to her.

Aleka bullies her since childhood. one day ww would lose her calm

4.) Put Orion's junk in a vice-grip after he made some dirty comments to her and slapped her butt.

if it was johns orion wouldn't have his hand and possibly not his junk too. For me as woman, it was a good response. these attitudes doesn't deserve mercy.

Johns WW did flat out say she kills her enemies. She said she "deals with them" which could mean many things besides killing. Perhaps she reforms them?

this is pure wishful thinking

[Auguste Dupin]

What else has Azz's WW done that's violent? Let's see:


1.) Dismembered the minotaurs Hera created.

2.) Stabbed Strife with a broken glass in the middle of a crowded nightclub when Strife was not physically attacking anyone.

3.) Punched Aleka for talking down to her.

4.) Put Orion's junk in a vice-grip after he made some dirty comments to her and slapped her butt.

5.) Impaled & killed WAres in order to injure the First Born.

6.) Called Strife a b_tch after she killed Strife's brother.


Johns WW did flat out say she kills her enemies. She said she "deals with them" which could mean many things besides killing. Perhaps she reforms them?

Yeah, because when a character is shown as a warrior princess and threatens to kill people on a regular basis, obviously by "dealing with them",she means "reforming".
....
Sorry but nope, what she meant was very clear, especially in context.

[Dr. Poison]

Yeah, because when a character is shown as a warrior princess and threatens to kill people on a regular basis, obviously by "dealing with them",she means "reforming".
....
Sorry but nope, what she meant was very clear, especially in context.

Oh really? Then who exactly has she killed amongst her rogues gallery?

[Sacred Knight]

Isn't arguing which version is most pacifist-like kinda moot? I mean, no version has been portrayed as a pacifist for a really long time, outside of lip service. She is a warrior first and foremost now, this has been true for at least going on a decade now.

[Blacksun]

Isn't arguing which version is most pacifist-like kinda moot? I mean, no version has been portrayed as a pacifist for a really long time, outside of lip service. She is a warrior first and foremost now, this has been true for at least going on a decade now.

Not really. From rucka, azzarello, simone, peace first, war in the last case

[Auguste Dupin]

Oh really? Then who exactly has she killed amongst her rogues gallery?

Who exactly has she reformed?

[Silvanus]

Dr. Poison,

Looking at your list, it appears the most violent thing Azzarello's Wonder Woman has done to a human being is punching Aleka--who was not just "talking down to her,": but inciting the rest of the Amazons against her. A punch, in superhero comics, doesn't usually count for very much in the violence department.

I'm not saying that violence against non-humans is irrelevant, but little things like whether the target is actually alive and whether it is as vulnerable do matter in looking at how violent and hard to justify an act really is. The "centaurs," for example, were zombie horses twisted into centaur shape. Strife, as a goddess, wasn't seriously harmed by the stab--she didn't so much as say "ouch." Orion wasn't seriously harmed by the tug(and, by the way, if it was a "vise grip" by Wonder Woman, even a New God probably would have been harmed.)

The impalement of War is an interesting example because it illustrates how reluctant Diana often is when she has to use violence. She impaled him not just to injure the First Born, but to stop the First Born from becoming War and thus possibly an unstoppable threat to Olympus and the world. And whether or not you think the creative team did a good job of showing why she had to do it, they clearly showed that she did it with deep sadness and reluctance. This is a key difference I see: Azz's Wonder Woman uses violence reluctantly (especially when it's going to cause serious harm or death), whereas Johns' Wonder Woman actually expresses eagerness to have someone to swing her sword at.

[Dr. Poison]

Who exactly has she reformed?

I listed reformation as a possible alternate the suggestion that she murders her villains. I have no proof of reformation. If you have proof that Diana has murdered any of her rogues in the New 52, I'd love to see it.

[Dr. Poison]

Dr. Poison,

Looking at your list, it appears the most violent thing Azzarello's Wonder Woman has done to a human being is punching Aleka--who was not just "talking down to her,": but inciting the rest of the Amazons against her. A punch, in superhero comics, doesn't usually count for very much in the violence department.

I'm not saying that violence against non-humans is irrelevant, but little things like whether the target is actually alive and whether it is as vulnerable do matter in looking at how violent and hard to justify an act really is. The "centaurs," for example, were zombie horses twisted into centaur shape. Strife, as a goddess, wasn't seriously harmed by the stab--she didn't so much as say "ouch." Orion wasn't seriously harmed by the tug(and, by the way, if it was a "vise grip" by Wonder Woman, even a New God probably would have been harmed.)

The impalement of War is an interesting example because it illustrates how reluctant Diana often is when she has to use violence. She impaled him not just to injure the First Born, but to stop the First Born from becoming War and thus possibly an unstoppable threat to Olympus and the world. And whether or not you think the creative team did a good job of showing why she had to do it, they clearly showed that she did it with deep sadness and reluctance. This is a key difference I see: Azz's Wonder Woman uses violence reluctantly (especially when it's going to cause serious harm or death), whereas Johns' Wonder Woman actually expresses eagerness to have someone to swing her sword at.

If the centaurs don't count being that they were zombies, do the Parademons also not count since they are genetically created in Desaad's lab and/or resurrected beings via Darkseid's Omega Beams?

If Strife doesn't count because she's a goddess then does Hal Jordan not count because when Diana struck him with her sword, he was wearing his power-ring which is said to be the most powerful weapon in the universe which is known to shield is wearer from harm and also heal them up?

Hephaesus is also a god so I guess Diana lassoing him by the neck during Trinity War doesn't count either?

Johns' Wonder Woman may verbally express more eagerness for battle than Azzarello's Wonder Woman does, but the end results are very similar.

[Blacksun]

If the centaurs don't count being that they were zombies, do the Parademons also not count since they are genetically created in Desaad's lab and/or resurrected beings via Darkseid's Omega Beams?

If Strife doesn't count because she's a goddess then does Hal Jordan not count because when Diana struck him with her sword, he was wearing his power-ring which is said to be the most powerful weapon in the universe which is known to shield is wearer from harm and also heal them up?

Hephaesus is also a god so I guess Diana lassoing him by the neck during Trinity War doesn't count either?

Johns' Wonder Woman may verbally express more eagerness for battle than Azzarello's Wonder Woman does, but the end results are very similar.

what results? like part of a city being destroyed because she couldn't stop punching Hal jordan?
people and government afraid of her?

[Dr. Poison]

what results? like part of a city being destroyed because she couldn't stop punching Hal jordan?
people and government afraid of her?

Hal Jordan, Hephaestus, Zola, Strife, Aleka, Orion, and WAres were all hurt by Diana when none of them were physically threatening her. Heck, teenage Diana threw a dagger at WAres' throat when he simply approached her during a time of frustration.

[Auguste Dupin]

I listed reformation as a possible alternate the suggestion that she murders her villains. I have no proof of reformation. If you have proof that Diana has murdered any of her rogues in the New 52, I'd love to see it.

I don't have to "prove" she murdered any one in her rogue gallery, since the whole point she's making in that conversation is that she doesn't have one, due to her killing her foes.
.