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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    I don't have to "prove" she murdered any one in her rogue gallery, since the whole point she's making in that conversation is that she doesn't have one, due to her killing her foes.
    .

    You're right. You don't have to prove anything to me or anyone else but I have not seen sufficient evidence to agree with you that Diana flat-out murders her villains. We have not been shown a single dead rogue nor has she expressly admitted to killing any of them.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Hal Jordan, Hephaestus, Zola, Strife, Aleka, Orion, and WAres were all hurt by Diana when none of them were physically threatening her. Heck, teenage Diana threw a dagger at WAres' throat when he simply approached her during a time of frustration.
    but zola,strife,orion, all had minor injuries. No destruction of private property like it was with hal jordan. and they made wrong things that demanded some reaction. hephaestus was all out of blue, if she wanted to aks a question, why so brute?
    if I'm alone in a dark place, hear something in the woods I would run. since Diana has a training she threw the dagger. she was just a young woman scared

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    but zola,strife,orion, all had minor injuries. No destruction of private property like it was with hal jordan. and they made wrong things that demanded some reaction. hephaestus was all out of blue, if she wanted to aks a question, why so brute?
    if I'm alone in a dark place, hear something in the woods I would run. since Diana has a training she threw the dagger. she was just a young woman scared

    If Diana and WAres were both human and the dagger had struck WAres' throat, Diana would be guilty of murder and she couldn't even plead self-defense.
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  4. #79
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    You're right. You don't have to prove anything to me or anyone else but I have not seen sufficient evidence to agree with you that Diana flat-out murders her villains. We have not been shown a single dead rogue nor has she expressly admitted to killing any of them.
    Well, you can't really argue against the context in which she made that comment. And you can't really argue against the fact that Johns' Diana is not the kind of person who would likely have a "reformation island".
    Sure, we haven't seen any dead rogue, but ultimately that's because Johns is writing Justice League, not Wonder Woman. And him having her say she's "dealing with her foes permanently" is ultimately nothing more than Johns doing what he always does: writing characters the way he sees them, with little to no regard to how they are actually written in their own books.
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  5. #80
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Well, you can't really argue against the context in which she made that comment. And you can't really argue against the fact that Johns' Diana is not the kind of person who would likely have a "reformation island".
    Sure, we haven't seen any dead rogue, but ultimately that's because Johns is writing Justice League, not Wonder Woman. And him having her say she's "dealing with her foes permanently" is ultimately nothing more than Johns doing what he always does: writing characters the way he sees them, with little to no regard to how they are actually written in their own books.
    I doubt Johns even reads other writers' work. MAYBE Synder's, maybe.
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  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Well, you can't really argue against the context in which she made that comment. And you can't really argue against the fact that Johns' Diana is not the kind of person who would likely have a "reformation island".
    Sure, we haven't seen any dead rogue, but ultimately that's because Johns is writing Justice League, not Wonder Woman. And him having her say she's "dealing with her foes permanently" is ultimately nothing more than Johns doing what he always does: writing characters the way he sees them, with little to no regard to how they are actually written in their own books.

    I have to respectfully disagree again. Geoff has reintroduced a lot of classic Wonder Woman elements in Justice League: Steve, Etta, Cheetah, her chaining weakness, and even Giganta was seen in a photograph during the Graves arc so I don't think it's a stretch to think Diana could have been referring to Reformation Island when she said she "deals with them". She keeps getting labeled as a murderer but besides the Parademons, we haven't seen her murder a single living creature in Justice League. Yes, she makes a lot of threats but a lot of people say things they don't actually end up doing. Look at this issue for example. When she was knocking Metallo around, she was talking about she was going to take her sword to Luthor's throat yet when she finally did meet up with Luthor, her sword didn't go anywhere near his throat.
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  7. #82
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    We all know John's WW is not canon.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    If the centaurs don't count being that they were zombies, do the Parademons also not count since they are genetically created in Desaad's lab and/or resurrected beings via Darkseid's Omega Beams?
    I'm not particularly troubled by her and the other Leaguers smashing Parademons--so, sure, call this one a wash. At the same time, I may as well mention that if the the parademons are resurrected humans or humanoids,they might be due a little more consideration than a zombie made from a horse. I like horses, but I don't equate putting down a mad, rampaging, weaponized animal with killing a human.

    If Strife doesn't count because she's a goddess then does Hal Jordan not count because when Diana struck him with her sword, he was wearing his power-ring which is said to be the most powerful weapon in the universe which is known to shield is wearer from harm and also heal them up?
    It might be said to be the most powerful weapon in the universe, but on the same page Wonder Woman is able to break one of its constructs like glass, so I'm not sure how certain she could have been that her actions couldn't hurt Hal--who, after all, is only flesh and blood. And what's worst about the Hal incident is that it's directed against a teammate, suggesting a certain lack of control even if she weren't hurting anyone. But as Brett has often pointed out, Diana's fight with Hal caused collateral damage that must have been detrimental to ordinary people--much worse than a little glass on a bar. Incidentally, she also kicks Superman hard enough that he says he'll be feeling it for a while--and that seems more plausible know that we've seen elsewhere what she can do against Kryptonians.

    Hephaesus is also a god so I guess Diana lassoing him by the neck during Trinity War doesn't count either?
    I wasn't troubled by that as "violence," per se; it did no real harm. If anything, I didn't like that she seemed rude, disrespectful and ungrateful to a friend who had helped her out. Strife, on the other hand, was someone who had just instigated Dina's sisters to kill each other, and she was now putting her hand on Zola's belly and making a crack--or a threat (with a capricious being like Strife, how could anyone know for sure?) about cutting the unborn baby out of that belly. So I guess I'm not concerned that she was rude, disrespectful or ungrateful in that instance.

    Johns' Wonder Woman may verbally express more eagerness for battle than Azzarello's Wonder Woman does, but the end results are very similar.
    Verbally expressing more eagerness for battle--and, indeed, for cutting off heads--suggests a real personality difference between the two versions, especially when you combine it with the fact that Azz's Wonder Woman regularly abstains from violent acts (taking vengeance on Hera, fighting back against Siracca, killing the Minotaur, killing the First Born) in which many people would probably not hesitate to engage if they were in her shoes.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 05-22-2014 at 03:21 PM.

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I'm not particularly troubled by her and the other Leaguers smashing Parademons--so, sure, call this one a wash. At the same time, I may as well mention that if the the parademons are resurrected humans or humanoids,they might be due a little more consideration than a zombie made from a horse. I like horses, but I don't equate putting down a mad, rampaging, weaponized animal with killing a human.



    It might be said to be the most powerful weapon in the universe, but on the same page Wonder Woman is able to break one of its constructs like glass, so I'm not sure how certain she could have been that her actions couldn't hurt Hal--who, after all, is only flesh and blood. And what's worst about the Hal incident is that it's directed against a teammate, suggesting a certain lack of control even if she weren't hurting anyone. But as Brett has often pointed out, Diana's fight with Hal caused collateral damage that must have been detrimental to ordinary people--much worse than a little glass on a bar. Incidentally, she also kicks Superman hard enough that he says he'll be feeling it for a while--and that seems more plausible know that we've seen elsewhere what she can do against Kryptonians.



    I wasn't troubled by that as "violence," per se; it did no real harm. If anything, I didn't like that she seemed rude, disrespectful and ungrateful to a friend who had helped her out. Strife, on the other hand, was someone who had just instigated Dina's sisters to kill each other, and she was now putting her hand on Zola's belly and making a crack--or a threat (with a capricious being like Strife, how could anyone know for sure?) about cutting the unborn baby out of that belly. So I guess I'm not concerned that she was rude, disrespectful or ungrateful in that instance.


    Verbally expressing more eagerness for battle--and, indeed, for cutting off heads--suggests a real personality difference between the two versions, especially when you combine it with the fact that Azz's Wonder Woman regularly abstains from violent acts (taking vengeance on Hera, fighting back against Siracca, killing the Minotaur, killing the First Born) in which many people would probably not hesitate to engage if they were in her shoes.

    Whose head did Johns' Wonder Woman cut off? If you're talking about the child kidnapper that Waller mentioned, that's 2nd hand information at best plus Waller could have been misinformed or she simply misunderstood. Also - what if kidnapping is not all the kidnapper did to the child? What if Diana walked in on the kidnapper physically or sexually abusing the child? Especially in an instance of the latter, I can't say I would look down upon Diana if she slit the kidnapper's throat. Can we put ourselves in Diana's shoes here too (if this account is even an accurate one)?
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  10. #85

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    I wanted to reiterate what Silvanus said earlier, that sometimes a little violence is nothing in comics. It's the nature of the medium. Normally you wouldnt start throwing punches the first moment you disagree with someone, but because they want their pages to have some action, they usually escalate the disagreement to that point. Robin's first acquantance with Batgirl? They fight. Superman and Batman? They fight. Superman and C.Marvel? They fight. And so on.

    So when WW ties Hephaestus up to question him, or when she grabs Orion's crotch, i wouldnt take that too seriously. Hell, i'd probably even excuse a woman that would do that in real life if the man had previously slapped her butt and called her names.

    So anyway, all of the above are nothing compared to Johns' WW who is constantly looking for someone to swing her sword at, who claims she has a permanent solution to her villain problem and who wants the JL to intervene and force whatever she thinks is common good over foreign nations that dont want their help.

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Whose head did Johns' Wonder Woman cut off? If you're talking about the child kidnapper that Waller mentioned, that's 2nd hand information at best plus Waller could have been misinformed or she simply misunderstood. Also - what if kidnapping is not all the kidnapper did to the child? What if Diana walked in on the kidnapper physically or sexually abusing the child? Especially in an instance of the latter, I can't say I would look down upon Diana if she slit the kidnapper's throat. Can we put ourselves in Diana's shoes here too (if this account is even an accurate one)?
    Waller... misinformed... It's not like this was some major conspiracy, it was just a crook holding a kid suspect. What could she have misunderstood about it? And here we're talking about Waller, she doesnt misunderstand, she knows.

    Come on now.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    Waller... misinformed... It's not like this was some major conspiracy, it was just a crook holding a kid suspect. What could she have misunderstood about it? And here we're talking about Waller, she doesnt misunderstand, she knows.

    Come on now.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Amanda Waller but she doesn't have the best track record. She's been known to put her own spin on things or manipulate people to achieve her own ends. As for her being misinformed - while she may be great at what she does, I doubt that everyone who is a resource of hers is as good as she is.
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  13. #88

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    I think Johns has been very consistent in his portrayal of WW. From the get go he told us she killed a crook, then he hasnt missed a chance to show how "sword happy" she is, and finally she had her tell Clark that her solution to the villain problem means she doesnt have to worry about them anymore, which got clark worried. I assume Superman got worried because she didnt mean reforming them.

    So you mean to tell me that after all this, and after 3 years, Johns is going to take it all back and say "lol you guys, Waller made a mistake, Diana never killed anyone, nor is she violent". No way. He wants her to be violent and he's been showing her like that since day one.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Whose head did Johns' Wonder Woman cut off?
    I didn't say she cuts heads off; I said she expressed eagerness to do violence or even cut off heads. See?:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Verbally expressing more eagerness for battle--and, indeed, for cutting off heads--....
    I was thinking of the time when Batman says "we don't cut off heads" and WOnder WOman said "I do."

  15. #90
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    I think Johns has been very consistent in his portrayal of WW. From the get go he told us she killed a crook, then he hasnt missed a chance to show how "sword happy" she is, and finally she had her tell Clark that her solution to the villain problem means she doesnt have to worry about them anymore, which got clark worried. I assume Superman got worried because she didnt mean reforming them.

    So you mean to tell me that after all this, and after 3 years, Johns is going to take it all back and say "lol you guys, Waller made a mistake, Diana never killed anyone, nor is she violent". No way. He wants her to be violent and he's been showing her like that since day one.

    I agree with you that Johns' Wonder Woman is violent but some assumptions and reaching appears to be at work here. We have seen no actual proof that she has killed anyone other than Parademons. All there has been is talk about killing. Not a single dead body has been presented.

    I don't care for how she slashed Hal with her sword, fought Superman and caused collateral damage, or how she lassoed Hephaestus by the neck in order to get him to talk but that doesn't make her a mass-murderer.
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