SUPERMAN 2000 pitch: The biggest missed opportunity of the past 20 years? Or bullet dodged?

[Auguste Dupin]

It had Morrison, Waid, Millar when he was still writing decent stuff, and......that other guy writing Superman on a regular basis. Of course it would have been awesome. Which is also why it never happened.

[Jim Kelly]

I liked Tom Peyer's HOURMAN run and that had a kind of Mort Weisinger feel--so maybe he would've been good.

At one time, I thought this was a missed opportunity. But now I have no real feelings about it either way. I doubt that it would have stuck if it had been done. In the last fifteen years nothing has stuck for very long. The people running DC have no idea what to do with Superman and they lose faith in every new idea pretty quickly. It probably would have just been another failed attempt to put some life back into the franchise.

[Kid A]

So because the mediocre stories we got instead of Superman 2000 didn't stick, Superman 2000 wouldn't have stuck?

That's not even getting into the extent to which the ideas in the pitch made their way into canon, starting with Birthright and culminating with the New 52.

[Deniz Camp]

Not really too bothered by it. We got it in the form of Morrison's "Action" and "All Star Superman", Millar's "Red Son" and Waid's "Birthright". Morrison has said pretty much all he has to say for the character at this point, so one presumes he 'used up' his Superman ideas, Millar was already on his way towards streamlining his work to the point of total lack of novelty, and Waid's real strength was never much in antagonist creation so I can't say I'm too bothered by what he was or was not allowed to add to the mythology. M

Frankly, what we're seeing from Pak right now is a slightly better done version of what I'd expect from Waid.

[Ascended]

Frankly, what we're seeing from Pak right now is a slightly better done version of what I'd expect from Waid.

.....there IS something vaguely Waid-ish about Pak isnt there?

Oh my, could we dare hope for a lengthy, defining run for Action Pak'd as we got for Wally West from Waid? No, I dare not even dream it!

someone get me a melodramatic gif for this! Please.

[Sacred Knight]

Pak says on Twitter he has a big announcement tomorrow, hopefully it'll have something to do with Superman.

edit: Nope, appears to be something creator owned. Whatever it is though I'll support it.

[Deniz Camp]

.....there IS something vaguely Waid-ish about Pak isnt there?

In that they both go for a very straightforward milieu and focus primarily on emotional struggles, especially through internal narration, yeah, I'd say so. They both go very much out of their way, it strikes me, to get us into the head of the character, to ground us in his consciousness.

[K. Jones]

It's funny how over the last 15 years they've effectively put into play most of the Superman 2000 elements. Essentially right now we have something pretty close to it, albeit with its own baggage on top of other baggage. But so it goes.

Bronze Age Superman is a blast. I mean you've got the Phantom Zone miniseries ... the DC Comics Presents run (effectively the Superman version of Brave and Bold, and it featured back-to-back-to-back adventures). You've got Kirby for god's sake spinning the Super War of Darkseid and Apokolips which is like an expansion - not strictly Superman, but an expansion of his area of the DCU. It's easy enough to take all the good elements from that and ditch that kind of "authoritarian old guy" baggage, but like, the Kirby Jimmy Olsen stuff is essentially exactly what Morrison riffed on in All-Star with his 2.0 P.R.O.J.E.C.T. and Jimmy being an awesomely exciting and cool dude and Clark being surprisingly down with possibly unethical super-science and working with super-scientists in super-research facilities.

I really need to read more Bronze stuff. Superman's one of my favorite heroes but it's no small task to backtrack and I'm still working on my recent Batman history.

[Blacksun]

I liked Tom Peyer's HOURMAN run and that had a kind of Mort Weisinger feel--so maybe he would've been good.

At one time, I thought this was a missed opportunity. But now I have no real feelings about it either way. I doubt that it would have stuck if it had been done. In the last fifteen years nothing has stuck for very long. The people running DC have no idea what to do with Superman and they lose faith in every new idea pretty quickly. It probably would have just been another failed attempt to put some life back into the franchise.

the problem is the continuation, millar, morrison and waid wouldn't stay 10 years on superman books. so who knows if superman books wouldn't be broke by 2010 same way they were.

undo the marriage and the traingle for 3 is aretreat the character and marginalize Lois. it exactly same thing that new 52 did.

“There was something special and unique about the love triangle that existed between Clark Kent, Superman and Lois Lane,” Lee says. “By restoring that essential part of his mythology, we would get a lot more interest in the character and take Superman and Clark Kent in bold new directions that felt more contemporary and modern.”

well Lee, any new superhero movie the love interest know the secret ID (if there is one). keep the secret ID from the love interest is the most boring and awful part of the flash, there isn't any good reason to keep it apart.

maybe it was a missed opportunity, but I'm glad they skip it

[Dispenser Of Truth]

undo the marriage and the traingle for 3 is aretreat the character and marginalize Lois. it exactly same thing that new 52 did.

well Lee, any new superhero movie the love interest know the secret ID (if there is one). keep the secret ID from the love interest is the most boring and awful part of the flash, there isn't any good reason to keep it apart.

maybe it was a missed opportunity, but I'm glad they skip it

The split of Lois and Clark didn't make it into the final pitch.

[Jim Kelly]

Yeah, I really doubt that all four of those guys would have stuck around for more than two years. And during that time they would have likely met with interference from the Powers That Be. It's not the cogs in the machine that's the problem--it's the machine itself.

[Auguste Dupin]

Yeah, I really doubt that all four of those guys would have stuck around for more than two years. And during that time they would have likely met with interference from the Powers That Be. It's not the cogs in the machine that's the problem--it's the machine itself.

Well, they did meet interference from the Powers that be. They prevented it from happening, I can't think of any bigger interference than that.

[Jim Kelly]

It's funny how over the last 15 years they've effectively put into play most of the Superman 2000 elements. Essentially right now we have something pretty close to it, albeit with its own baggage on top of other baggage. But so it goes.

Bronze Age Superman is a blast. I mean you've got the Phantom Zone miniseries ... the DC Comics Presents run (effectively the Superman version of Brave and Bold, and it featured back-to-back-to-back adventures). You've got Kirby for god's sake spinning the Super War of Darkseid and Apokolips which is like an expansion - not strictly Superman, but an expansion of his area of the DCU. It's easy enough to take all the good elements from that and ditch that kind of "authoritarian old guy" baggage, but like, the Kirby Jimmy Olsen stuff is essentially exactly what Morrison riffed on in All-Star with his 2.0 P.R.O.J.E.C.T. and Jimmy being an awesomely exciting and cool dude and Clark being surprisingly down with possibly unethical super-science and working with super-scientists in super-research facilities.

I really need to read more Bronze stuff. Superman's one of my favorite heroes but it's no small task to backtrack and I'm still working on my recent Batman history.

I rather like the Superman in charge in the regular Superman features from the '70s, but it occurs to me that there's another '70s book worth reading where Kal-El is working with a team and isn't always in control. This is SUPERBOY AND THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES.

After being shunted to the back pages of ACTION COMICS and then SUPERBOY, in the very early '70s, the Legion took over the Boy of Steel's own comic, just as they had ten years before taken over his lead spot in ADVENTURE COMICS. As a result--both in ADVENTURE and then in SUPERBOY--Kal-El is always featured with the team. Sometimes in a mere cameo or supporting role, but many times in a lead role.

The first issue of SUPERBORY AND THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES is essentially SUPERBOY No. 197 (September '73) [though, as I say, before then the LSH was a frequent back-up feature]. From this point on the cover identifies the book as SUPERBOY AND THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES, although the indicia wouldn't reflect this fact until No. 231. During this run you have the sadly short-lived Cary Bates and Dave Cockrum stories; followed by Bates/Shooter/Grell; followed by Levitz/various. That brings us up to the end of the '70s, when Gerry Conway becomes the regular writer. Soon after that, at the dawn of the '80s, Superboy leaves the book, which becomes simply LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES.

It just so happens at the same time the quality goes down. Although I kept reading the book, so it wasn't that bad. This interregnum lasts for almost two years, before Superboy returns to the team and Paul Levitz returns as a writer. And that starts off the second Levitz Legion run which lasts through most of the '80s.

I mention S/LSH because a lot of this material has been reprinted already, so it's not that hard to get. These adventures show the young Superman as a fish out of water in a world that is almost as alien to him as it is to us. We become totally immersed in this futuristic fantasy and the writers and artists are allowed to strecth their imaginations to tell mind-bending tales. The Legion world is populated with distinctive characters who become our best friends (or worst enemies). With the Legionnaires we experience the highs of birth and the lows of death and all the peaks and valleys in between.

It's probably one of the most beautiful long-running series DC has published or ever will publish.

[manofsteel1979]

As some have said in this thread, there is no guarantee it would have stuck, either due to reader indifference (the comic landscape was different in 1999 than it was when ALL STAR was finally published), editorial meddling (which we know happened often even before Dan DiDio took over things), or even clashing egos among the writers (Waid in particular. Also Millar and Morrison are no longer on speaking terms.).

Also too, i wonder what the art teams would have looked like? It's curious in the proposal that's out there that the writers seemed not to have anyone in mind in particular to carry out their vision. I imagine Frank Quietly would have been involved somewhere.

[Ascended]

undo the marriage and the traingle for 3 is aretreat the character and marginalize Lois. it exactly same thing that new 52 did.

Its not the status quo, its how writers use it. I totally agree that undoing the marriage is a mistake, whether its the New52 reboot or the 2000 pitch (which, again, the marriage was left intact in the final pitch). But Lois not knowing doesnt inherently demean her character. Hell, at the height of her popularity back in the 60's and 70's, she didnt know the secret and the Triangle for Two was in full effect with no signs of changing. Her character was not hurt then despite the status quo, and the only reason she's not getting much panel time now (which so many feel is akin to poor treatment) is because editorial wanted to distance the characters from each other so they could play with some new troupes before the inevitable return to Clois.