New Avengers 31 *spoilers*

[jphamlore]

The one thing I was right was that the Great Destroyer couldn't be a new character. If Hickman had created the next Thanos in New Avengers #31, Marvel would have screwed over all of the comic stores by failing to publicize the importance of this reveal, not warning them to order additional copies.

[Shaggy]

Do you guys think all the black priests were destroyed or did only some of them go into the library with Strange? I was just beginning to really like them.

[hawkeyefan]

The interesting thing is we never really saw how Doom held off 4 Celestials for the 20 minutes or so that they needed to defeat them when they crossed over to Earth 616 from the Bridge.

I still have to wonder how much Nathaniel Richards knows about all of this. He knew they would need Doom and convinced the rest of them. But he's been off somwhere time traveling since the end of Hickman's Fantastic Four.

Could it be that Nathaniel Richards is the ruler of Battleworld? He and the kids set a lot of this up. And it would make sense for the one person who has no alternate universe counterparts to rule a planet that is made up of nothing but alternate universe counterparts of all the other characters.

Congratulations to those who figured out it was Doom.

I think Doom is a good choice because he's the one character who Hickman showed was capable of creating something from the white space. At this point the only way for anyone to defeat the Beyonders in my opinion is to somehow use the properties of white space to defeat them, perhaps having the Beyonders melt back into white space.

Then again Doom's method of operation is always to try and steal power for himself and that never works out.

And I don't see how having the Multiversal Avengers facing the Beyonders is going to turn out any better than Bambi versus Godzilla.

Well, Hyperion at least was able to exist in the white space. And the Map-Makers, who work for the Beyonders, called him "post-universal" and went after him fiercely, if I remember correctly. So that kind of implies he may be able to harm the Beyonders.

And the other characters, with the exception of Thor, are all products of the Builders' Superflow structure, which existed between universes, too, so perhaps they are "post-universal" as well?

We'll see.

[Darkspellmaster]

Wow So much to talk about, By the way Teepee great job with the spectuations and being right!

In that case, among the Illuminati, which ones need the brain, the heart, the courage, and the way home?

I mean, if you're going that way, might as well go the whole way...

Brains would have to go to probably T'challa as he's letting his emotions do most of the leading of him for the majority of the run. Heart has to be Tony since he's become inverted and isn't remembering who he really is as a person. Courage I would say Reed since he's the one that normally wouldn't give up and now he is, so he needs that. Way home is Namor because he's lost and isn't sure where to go from here only forward due to the fact that everyone pretty much, he thinks, turned on him in the end.

I bet king Loki knows Rabum Alal is Doctor Doom..

Can I say that I semi called it in the Loki Apprication thread?

http://community.comicbookresources....1#post899516

He's telling the truth, but only half of it. We as readers only get to see what he wants us to see, and what he wants everyone to believe is that he's working for a bad outcome. What if he's speeding this all along so that this Loki doesn't have time to become bitter and become the darker self that he is now? What if his plans are to use this Loki, our Loki, as a means of altering different outcomes? I found it interesting that he went to talk to Doom when he was in Midgard of the future and the skull starts talking: "Listen. Remember. That which is called Ego-Death is coming to you. Be not weak. It is not Dying, It is not dying."

Some one else was pointing to this series as it pertained to the Glalactuse seed and the World tree?

Or at it feels like a Reed story at least.

And this may have been me again. Not sure...I did mention the idea of the world tree connection in Avengers 42 thread

If he does that with Dr. Doom on hand with whatever he's doing with Molecule man and mixing that magic with what's going on within the Thor universe via the World Tree(which I'm sure will have some part in all this given it's connections to the multiverse at some point in time) it could be very feasible that he does manage to do as you say and uncover all the words. Although I wonder if he's setting up the Black Priest to use as part of the spell. Are they really real or are they just constructs,
thus living energies?

I'm kind of surprised that no one mentioned the fact that the festival of Akitu falls in April/May in our calendar which was the celebration where "the re-creation of the Earth, drawing from the Marduk-centered creation story". Given that this seems to be going into creation myths here there could be something to be said about the timing of the last two Avengers issues. Then again I may be just seeing things there.

And I thought it's a reference to AXIS inversion.

How does time work now? What future does King Loki reside? Did he already experience the Secret Wars, just like Hawkeye, Franklin etc.?

King Loki comes from the future after Secret Wars. He apparently is up to something in regard to his younger self, although it's up in the air if he's there to help or hinder AoA Loki. And Yes King Loki did experience it as he keeps referring to hints about the future...Oh god...in the Loki thread we keep talking about who could be writing Loki's story and who's managing King Loki. If Doom is behind a lot of this, could he also be the one writing Loki's story to help himself?

This has made me realize something...Al Ewing, writer for Loki and The Mighty Avengers, has likely known about this for a while. In Loki, Doom goes on and on about how he's figured out how to turn himself into a god. Is it possible Marvel has actually planned it that far?

But this is a fantastic theory, everyone trying to save the earths from what might be just a natural occurrence. Or perhaps Doom or someone did accidentally start it and now they're trying to fix their mistake?

You know how everyone keeps asking How Doom is going to be a god? Well he already knows how thanks in part to King Loki and Loki himself.

Agent of Asgard 6.

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4873522.html

So Doom went into the Future and sees a burned out earth where he meets King Loki and a skull that warns him to remember and about death of ego and other such things that King Loki calls a spoiler. He also tells Doom that the place they're in is Doom's home country and then sends him back to the present where he decides in order to stop Loki, who he thinks is behind the whole burned down earth, has Val pull him into the castle and well this is where things get interesting.

Doom: The earth is always spinning. Always moving. Over the course of history, we have traveled immeasurable distances through the universe. Thus any time machine must also be a space machine. Once I'd located your unique temporal signature, retrieving you was a simple matter. Removing you -as I must, if earth is to survive -will be considerably more difficult.

Loki: Well don't expect any help from me.

Doom: Doom needs no assistance. I have fought Gods before. The key is to establish superiority on the Symbolic Level.

Doom: So -a magical Duel between us. The duel will take the form of a game. The game will take the form of a conversation. Your Move.

After Val catches Loki who tried to turn invisible

Doom: Consider this: If "Magical Thinking" is the Assumption of a Higher Narrative in the flow of Events then True Magic...

Loki: What are you talking about. Mad old...

Doom: It's...My...Move.

Doom Hits Loki knocking him back to the ground. And this is where it get's interesting. Bear in mind in AoA the idea of story and the roles people play in it are what keep Thor and the other gods among the living. They play roles, their parts in the over all story and narrative. So how does one become a god that is able to handle the beyonders...well you have to think what a God is made of...

Doom: As I was saying. True Magic is the imposition of a Narrative upon Reality. It is telling a Story to the world...and making the world Believe it. The Dark work of Police and Politicians. Of Rulers and Tricksters. And if Magic is Narrative...then to be a creature of Magic...to be a God...is to be a creature of Story, Yes? Your Move.
Loki: Um...

Doom brings in the Doom Bots and Loki makes a quip about the bots being all the same as Doom. Doom says it's a fair question and explains that the do so that he can fool that it's to fool others in the event that he ever acts outside of being himself or if he ends up dead for some reason then people will think it's a doombot and the reverse is true.

Doom: What is Doom? The flesh and blood I can swap in and out at my convenience? The mind I have copied to a thousand Machines? No Doom cannot fit in such small containers. I am not my body. Not my mind. I am...I am the old trunk filled with ancient mysteries. I am the explosion in the college laboratory. I am the mask that burns with the fires of vengeance. I am the Legend that unites this nation. I am the story of Doom.

Doom: And if Doom is a creature of story...

Loki: Stop. Just...stop. This is madness, Doom. You're not a story. You're not a God. One day, you'll die...

Doom: Oh? The story of Doom can end you say?

Loki: Yes!

Doom: Then I'm a better story then you. You're beaten on your own ground Little God. You're mine.

It's interesting with the idea of religion and how Doom is controlling the swans under that assumption. If a story and a legend can be woven into something that people believe then a person who is mortal can then use true magic if there is belief in that. I think honestly this is going to be part of Doom's plan when it comes to dealing with the Beyonders and the Incursions. Because, as Doom says, if he is a legend that unites a nation, what then is Rabum Alal but that? A legend that is uniting the swans under his religion that he created and that they believed in.

Oh and one other small question. Does anyone think that Val is in on Doom's plans? Her Ark thing could be connected to all of this. Are they working together in some way?

[Strangefan]

I'm fairly sure all the Black Priests were there, because Strange instructed them all to gather as they are going up against this uber-god, Rabum Alal. I was just getting to like them too, but of course, all must die in this story.

I'm kind of thinking that the Black Swan that has been on 616 is Rabum Alal, because she seems to be the only sister not at the temple, and I am also thinking Doom was simply taking advantage of the blind Sisters at the temple-library to pose as him(?). That way Rabum Alal has always been there, is a new character, and it would be a change of pace to have the big bad be female. It would also explain why he (?) wanted them blind to begin with, so they couldn't see that Dread Pirate Roberts style that their "god" changes from time to time.

[Rosebunse]

Damn, the proof was all in the Loki comic! It told us, and we didn't listen because of course writers at Marvel never, ever corporate. We must flog ourselves for our disbelief!

But really, it's pretty funny.

So, if Doom is king of Battleworld, is he king because he's the most competent, or because he saved them all, so of course he's the ruler? Now, if he is the ruler, I must say, I'm a bit surprised he's given some domains any autonomy at all. I'm half guessing him saving the zombie universe was either a mistake, or he saved them intentionally to use it as a prison.

[Darkspellmaster]

I'm fairly sure all the Black Priests were there, because Strange instructed them all to gather as they are going up against this uber-god, Rabum Alal. I was just getting to like them too, but of course, all must die in this story.

I'm kind of thinking that the Black Swan that has been on 616 is Rabum Alal, because she seems to be the only sister not at the temple, and I am also thinking Doom was simply taking advantage of the blind Sisters at the temple-library to pose as him(?). That way Rabum Alal has always been there, is a new character, and it would be a change of pace to have the big bad be female. It would also explain why he (?) wanted them blind to begin with, so they couldn't see that Dread Pirate Roberts style that their "god" changes from time to time.

The problem with Black Swan being Rabum Alal is that Doom seems to fit into the role that needs to be played with. 616 Black Swan could be questioning if Doom is really a god, but for me why would she be in that god like position in the first place? Of course this could all flow into the idea of story, narrative, horrors and the idea of a god sending a herald to meet with those that could help alter things. Or she maybe countering him and working for the Beyonders. Who knows. I just can't see her as being the Great Destroyer.

Damn, the proof was all in the Loki comic! It told us, and we didn't listen because of course writers at Marvel never, ever corporate. We must flog ourselves for our disbelief!

Exactly! Arrgh if only we had been looking at Doom rather then Loki in regard to what he was saying.

But really, it's pretty funny.

So, if Doom is king of Battleworld, is he king because he's the most competent, or because he saved them all, so of course he's the ruler? Now, if he is the ruler, I must say, I'm a bit surprised he's given some domains any autonomy at all. I'm half guessing him saving the zombie universe was either a mistake, or he saved them intentionally to use it as a prison.

Doom I think might not be the king. He saved them but this is a larger set up. I think there are more players in this then just him. He's a part of it but the game will be something else. Val may have set things up, as for the Zombies...maybe a prison, but I would like to think that it might have been thrown in there with the intention of being a training ground for fighters at a later time. Or it's a place that snuck in, maybe the Cabal has something to do with it? I'm sure there is more to the whole set up of the game then what we see. Doom may also be a player in it as well as being one of the chess masters.

Also now that I think of it the whole giant chess game may be a clue as to who else could be working with this. If Doom is representing one side of things, then someone else could be representing another. I get the feeling that this has happened before but with another person in Doom's place.

[TresDias]

Well done to those of you who guessed it was Doom. I was not one of you. My expectation was there was no actual Great Destroyer -- just a breakdown of the multiverse triggered indirectly by the time exploits of the various worlds' heroes and villains -- but I was confident that if there was a Rabum Alal, it would have to be someone we had already seen in the story. This issue was set up as a reveal -- there's no revelatory aspect to "the smoke clears and someone we've never seen before emerges!"

I'm fine with it being Doom. It fits the story Hickman has been telling for the past several years -- and, indeed, could practically be said to have given itself away over the course of his time telling the story. What "holes" exist are just details we haven't been given yet. The temporal conundrum of it all is hardly problematic. Comic fans should be used to this sort of thing by now (see: the paternity of Shatterstar/Longshot).

I honestly thought it would be Ultron considering that Age of Ultron is coming out this summer. But nope, it's Dr. Doom. Guess this means the X-Men aren't doomed.

Yeah, my biggest takeaway from all this is how ironic the reveal is in light of all the belief that Marvel was preparing to pretty much abandon characters they don't have the film rights to.

Do you guys think all the black priests were destroyed or did only some of them go into the library with Strange? I was just beginning to really like them.

Strange said he was sending everyone. He is the only survivor.

I'm kind of thinking that the Black Swan that has been on 616 is Rabum Alal, because she seems to be the only sister not at the temple, and I am also thinking Doom was simply taking advantage of the blind Sisters at the temple-library to pose as him(?). That way Rabum Alal has always been there, is a new character, and it would be a change of pace to have the big bad be female. It would also explain why he (?) wanted them blind to begin with, so they couldn't see that Dread Pirate Roberts style that their "god" changes from time to time.

Tom Brevoort has confirmed this isn't a fake-out. Doom is Rabum Alal.

Damn, the proof was all in the Loki comic! It told us, and we didn't listen because of course writers at Marvel never, ever corporate. We must flog ourselves for our disbelief!

That's amazing. And, yeah, that's clearly what Doom has done here -- create a religion around himself so as to gain godlike power to contend with the Beyonders.

[Rosebunse]

It is rather amazing that Doom is at the forefront here. And I think one of the reasons I didn't think it would be him was because of the rumors that Marvel was abandoning the FF and X-Men. Doom's involvement makes me seriously wonder about the X-Men's involvement. It opens up the Phoenix's Egg to being more than just a small, silly thing that's just there to please the X-Men fans. It opens up Cyclop's involvement, and it makes me wonder about Jean Grey, Apocalypse...and pretty much every single other X-Men character.

Anything could happen now, folks.

[robreedwrites]

I would've liked for Rabum Alal to be T'Challa... or one of the previous Black Panthers.... upset about the decimated people. It would've made sense since the first Incursion was in Wakanda....

The first incursion in the 616 was in Wakanda. There were more beforehand though as Black Swan is not a rookie at destroying worlds and Hyperion being in the 616 is the result of a successful incursion.

[jphamlore]

It seems to me the direction will be for everyone to lose to the Beyonders in New Avengers #32, whether it's the Multiversal Avengers or Doom. If I read the solicitations correctly, the final incursion of 616 Earth and Ultimate Earth starts off Secret Wars. Thus I think the story must get even darker.

Obviously with Battleworld not everything is wiped out of existence, but I would not be surprised if why anything was saved is not revealed until Secret Wars #4 that is supposed to change everything's perception.

Also I am curious about the numbers of Beyonders that exist. On the one hand if they fought with the Celestials on every remaining universe simultaneously, one would think there would be many thousands. Yet I believe what has been depicted is at most five Beyonders, and often only three Beyonders are shown such as the three who were actually shown defeating the Living Tribunal.

[Shai-Hulud]

Also I am curious about the numbers of Beyonders that exist. On the one hand if they fought with the Celestials on every remaining universe simultaneously, one would think there would be many thousands. Yet I believe what has been depicted is at most five Beyonders, and often only three Beyonders are shown such as the three who were actually shown defeating the Living Tribunal.

I was wondering the same thing. And, you know, it could actually be both.

For example, there could be many millions of Beyonders in their own realm, wholly uninterested in the Marvel Universe, and only a handful of upstarts are causing all the trouble.

[dzub]

one of the biggest clues were in new avengers #27 when molecule man put on doom's mask and told the story black swan was telling. how did we miss that

[FriendRoss]

Read it with no spoilers.

Was expecting some stupid letter in a bottle or empty chair


The more it sets in the more I like it. Look at the total and complete **** storm doom had caused. Doom won!

Clap clap clap.

[jphamlore]

Read it with no spoilers.

Was expecting some stupid letter in a bottle or empty chair


The more it sets in the more I like it. Look at the total and complete **** storm doom had caused. Doom won!

Clap clap clap.

Adult Valeria Richards from the future rescued Doom in Hickman's Fantastic Four #611, so arguably she caused it all ...