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  1. #46
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltimateTy View Post
    Hickman lost me there with it being Doom. He should have just made it an OC.
    You can make an arguement a completely original character would have been disappointing too to many people too. Building up to a character no one has ever heard of isn't always exciting.

    In the least I'm assuming with Doom it'll all make sense in the end. I'm assuming Hickman probably planted all sorts of seeds leading to this since his FF run.

  2. #47
    Fantastic Member CZor's Avatar
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    I like the reveal, while expecting someone else, it does makes sense after reading Hickman's runs of Fantastic Four, FF and now Avengers.....there has to be more to all of this and this was just an initial reveal. Most likely there is no "Great Destroyer" and this is just Doom using the Black Swans (after all he said he created a religion and -without being controversial- there is always something lost in translation when it comes to religion) to fight the Beyonders while figuring out what the hell is going on or how all started.

    And I think also that Doom will end up then being this ruler or king of Battleworld (heck, I now believe that Battleworld is a creation of him and Molecule Man in order to at least try to salvage the Multiverse in case of failure).

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    You can make an arguement a completely original character would have been disappointing too to many people too. Building up to a character no one has ever heard of isn't always exciting.
    Spending 2 years building the myth of this character, it would have been pretty cool to see him live up to his name. But now we just got more Doom fanboying.

  4. #49
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    You also have to consider that in some respects, Hickman is paralleling the original Secret Wars with this and Doom played an integral role in that. Not Osborn, Not Thanos nor Magneto even though he was there.

    In the original Doom really doesn't play a big role in the opening chapters and at one point you think you can write him off when he gets slapped down by Galactus. But then he becomes the one who figures out a way to beat the Beyonder's game. The Beyonder wanted all the heroes and villains to fight each other to gain what they desired most. Doom took the fight to the Beyonder himself and won after gaining the power from Galactus's world ship IIRC. IMO he's done that again but we have yet to see if he got a power up somehow. That should be in the next issue since Doom is on the cover.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltimateTy View Post
    Hickman lost me there with it being Doom. He should have just made it an OC.
    Not many fans are open minded to OC.

    look at infinity event with the "Builders" and then Adj. X-Men first story arc with Arkea. Many didn't take to well to those OC.

  6. #51
    Mighty Member Biclopcicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    You also have to consider that in some respects, Hickman is paralleling the original Secret Wars with this and Doom played an integral role in that. Not Osborn, Not Thanos nor Magneto even though he was there.

    In the original Doom really doesn't play a big role in the opening chapters and at one point you think you can write him off when he gets slapped down by Galactus. But then he becomes the one who figures out a way to beat the Beyonder's game. The Beyonder wanted all the heroes and villains to fight each other to gain what they desired most. Doom took the fight to the Beyonder himself and won after gaining the power from Galactus's world ship IIRC. IMO he's done that again but we have yet to see if he got a power up somehow. That should be in the next issue since Doom is on the cover.
    He's got Molecule Man.... didn't know how powerful that guy was until I looked back at SWII- dude came close to taking out the original Beyonder by himself. But yeah, I think he deserves to have some kind of extra power to account for Great Destroyer status (what does that even mean anymore?!)

  7. #52
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biclopcicle View Post
    He's got Molecule Man.... didn't know how powerful that guy was until I looked back at SWII- dude came close to taking out the original Beyonder by himself. But yeah, I think he deserves to have some kind of extra power to account for Great Destroyer status (what does that even mean anymore?!)
    Yes, Owen is a big factor but I just wonder too if that is enough. Has Marvel tossed out the Englehart story in FF#319-320 where it was revealed that the Molecule Man and the SW Beyonder were incomplete halves of a Cosmic Cube? Where does that put you if you have Molecule Man on your side and say an Infinity Gauntlet? Remember the Doomverse was created with one and the Priests and the Professors took it from Doom. I still wonder if they will have a role in this along with the Doomverse. We don't know if that was destroyed or not. I am not sure if it even had an Earth of just Doomopolis.

    BTW, I guess that judgment that the Living Tribunal laid down on Doom in the Scott Lang story in FF is null and void.

  8. #53
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    Well considering that it is a new version of the original Secret Wars this reveal had to be seen sooner or later. Besides it makes sense given Marvel history.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Spending 2 years building the myth of this character, it would have been pretty cool to see him live up to his name. But now we just got more Doom fanboying.
    Well it is Dr. Doom who else would you expect.

  10. #55
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    The real mystery is what caused all of this to happen. It seems like it wasn't the birth of Rabum Alal after all.

  11. #56
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Spending 2 years building the myth of this character, it would have been pretty cool to see him live up to his name. But now we just got more Doom fanboying.
    You can make a good arguement making Doom the Destroyer effectively DOES make the character live up to the name.

  12. #57
    Fantastic Member CZor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yes, Owen is a big factor but I just wonder too if that is enough. Has Marvel tossed out the Englehart story in FF#319-320 where it was revealed that the Molecule Man and the SW Beyonder were incomplete halves of a Cosmic Cube? Where does that put you if you have Molecule Man on your side and say an Infinity Gauntlet? Remember the Doomverse was created with one and the Priests and the Professors took it from Doom. I still wonder if they will have a role in this along with the Doomverse. We don't know if that was destroyed or not. I am not sure if it even had an Earth of just Doomopolis.

    BTW, I guess that judgment that the Living Tribunal laid down on Doom in the Scott Lang story in FF is null and void.
    Could the destruction of the Doomverse (which could count as the "Birth of Rabum Alal" in the sense of the birth of Doom as the Great Destroyer) be the start of this while thing?...after all this was an artificial world created by Doom.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by CZor View Post
    Could the destruction of the Doomverse (which could count as the "Birth of Rabum Alal" in the sense of the birth of Doom as the Great Destroyer) be the start of this while thing?...after all this was an artificial world created by Doom.
    We've really not seen anything relating to it since FF #611 and now that we're down to what, barely a dozen universes I wonder if it was destroyed already. Or it it was excluded somehow it was an artificial creation???
    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 03-11-2015 at 08:15 AM.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's weird that Hickman did that life and death thing with Steve and Tony when both have played a relatively minor role in the story thus far. Though I suppose there's still time give them both some sort of big moment. Starks still out there trying to do something.
    Isn't Stark sitting in a cell in Wakanda? I thought the last we saw of him, Black Widow and Spider-Woman broke in, saw him there, and left him. I don't remember if it was in Avengers or Avengers World.
    The Worlds Greatest Comic Magazine Review - Vol 1 (Issues 1-50) and Vol 2 (Issues 51-102)

  15. #60
    Fantastic Member DrTraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeddi View Post
    The real mystery is what caused all of this to happen. It seems like it wasn't the birth of Rabum Alal after all.
    I think that we have our answer now. Fantastic Four 605.1 has us witness the destruction of an Earth, and a whole Universe, when a Reed/Doom hybrid loses control of an Infinity Gauntlet while under assault by that world's Avengers. That would probably be the destroyed Earth.

    On it's own, that wouldn't have caused the incursions, but it almost certainly would have shocked the hell out of the Ivory Kings. We've seen Earth at the center of events that could have resulted in the death of everything before (Marvel 1602, Age of Apocalypse, possibly Age of Ultron). The 616 Earth even beat the Beyonder (one of their child units). It is likely that the Ivory Kings decided to heck with this. They decided to tear down the multiverse and build something better using the Map Makers to ensure they get everything.

    Doom in Fantastic Four 611 finds a gauntlet and creates a Universe in his image in the place of the destroyed universe. As the Multiverse had already contracted, the forced in Universe could have caused the first Incursions by pushing together Earths "close" to each other. Thus starts the Incursions thanks to Doom.

    Meanwhile, during Time Runs Out, Owen Reese the Molecule Man hints to Doom that he has a bigger role in what is happening than even he realizes and takes Doom back "to the beginning." There Doom learns two important things: His role in what happened and the fact the Ivory Kings have started to work towards destroying it all.

    Doom realizes that even with Owen to back him up, he can not take on the Ivory Kings alone. He barely survived alone against 4 mad Celestials and so Doom sees an opportunity with the Incursions. Using the Swans (who he recruits using the Library of Worlds built by the Ivory Kings), Doom starts the great Game. The Swans will find each Universes Manifold, use the Manifold to continue to ensure Incursions happen, and build up an army of heroes and villains as the Incursions play out. Each destroyed Earth will leave behind a small trace on the victor allowing them to pick up rements of each Universe as they travel through the Incursions. Doom can then build Battleword, and his army, using those remnants.

    This is where Val and Franklin come in. Franklin will do the actual building of Battleworld using the Rogue Planet he helps ensure goes back in time. Val is doing a lot of the planning behind the scenes to make this plan come to fruition. Once Doom, Val, Franklin, and Owen build the Battleworld, they can use the army of heroes and villains to take on the Ivory Kings.

    Whew. Quite a plan.

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