Iron Fist: The Living Weapon Appreciation

[Penultimate Warrior]

This thread got me thinking about something that always bothered me a bit in the Immortal Iron Fist series. Why in the world did the writers (Brubaker and Fraction, I believe) give the Golden Age Iron Fist the name Orson Randall? That seems so unnecessarily confusing. Randall is like a blending of Danny's surname (Rand) and his father's given name (Wendall). Danny and Wendall Rand were not related to Orson Randall, correct? But that name would have you believe otherwise.

[Mike_Murdock]

I don't think I ever thought they were related just because they have similar last names, but it is a struggle not to mix up the names. Particularly Wendell.

[Bolo]

There's that. And I can see why not everyone is a fan of Finn Jones in general. After two seasons plus the Defenders, I still don't feel like he'd make his way out of a brown paper bag, let alone the elite warrior caste of K'un-Lun. I'd probably recast him and Misty Knight. Don't get me wrong, I love Simone Missick, I just don't like her for this role. Nicole Beharie, on the other hand, would have been perfect.

I think Finn Jones is really good is the role, not perfect but he have really taken his training seriously, and you can see that since Defenders, maybe he could be a little more muscular, but we could say the same thing for the actors of Punisher and Luke Cage, I remember that it was clearly a choice from the production, to have a Danny Rand/Jones thin, in some way his comics counterpart is the thin category too (more close to Spider-man); I think they have done this choice to contrast him to Daredevil, who is the big star of these tv show; these two heroes look like each others so I guess they try to differenciate them; it's probably for that him and Colleen look so young compared to the others cast from netflix show.

For Simone Missick, I like her in the role, I would have liked to have her and Danny together like in the comics; for Nicole Beharie I don't agree with you, she is too short for the role; we can't deny that Missick and Jones look like, alot, physically to their characters.

My main problems with the casting, despite I respect their works for their roles; it's Davos; physically too different to the role; and Jessica Henwick, I find her too young, and too "chubby", with a round face, too cute for the role, I would have prefered someone like Devon Aoki or specially Dichen Lachman, I would have loved to her in the role, someone who look fierce, but I guess like Danny they don't want probably to have a "double" of Elektra ? Chloe Bennett would have been better too (yes I know her and Lachman was already in AoS); the fact that Henwick have been in a little feud (but very very little) with Roy Thomas don't help the vision I have of her for the role.

I think apparently for peoples who complain, and I can agree, the ideal would have very martial artist for these roles who can act; but that difficult to find; to give more special training to Jones will change nothing, that too much physical training to a non expert; I think they have done a pretty good job for the fights, and the positive reactions for the season 2 prove that.

Somebody remembers the casting rumors for this show ? For Danny, Colleen, Davos etc... I remember Ray Park Jr for the movie, the infamous Lewis Tan (apparently it was not true); some peoples have suggested Christian Howard from Street Fighter, I don't know if he can act in such tv show, but it was my favorite choice.

[Panic]

This thread got me thinking about something that always bothered me a bit in the Immortal Iron Fist series. Why in the world did the writers (Brubaker and Fraction, I believe) give the Golden Age Iron Fist the name Orson Randall? That seems so unnecessarily confusing. Randall is like a blending of Danny's surname (Rand) and his father's given name (Wendall). Danny and Wendall Rand were not related to Orson Randall, correct? But that name would have you believe otherwise.

Brubaker and Fraction retconned Wendall into being an orphan who was virtually adopted by Orson; he took the surname "Rand" from Orson as far as I can tell, but dropped the "all" off the end, perhaps after the fight they had where they parted ways. I believe the writers wanted a "so that's where that came from" moment, much like the new Star Trek films give McCoy a convoluted explanation of his nickname "Bones" rather than keep it as an affectionate nickname for a doctor (from "sawbones"). It is complicated and unnecessary, but then I'm not particularly keen on Orson as a character anyway.

[taozen]

Cannot wait!

Attachment 70707

Rumor are Danny is going to give the Iron Fist away in this series. J/K #stillbitter #Can'tgetoverit

[taozen]

Attachment 70710

This is my favorite version of Sanford Greene's PM/IF:

pmif.jpeg

[Tien Long]

Long,

I want you to know that I fully understand and to a degree support your feelings on this issue. I can also Identify with them. So regardless of my stance on S2 Iron Fist know that as a minority myself I am right there with.

My major beef on IS2 is when the decision was made to cast Finn Jones Marvel/Disney/Lobe/Whoever else should have went all in and stood by their choice. They should have even tried harder to show why Danny Rand is a good character, not a white savior, and Finn Jones was the man for the job. Even Finn Jones himself should have been spending less time going to concerts, to beaches, and posting up art photos on his instagram, and instead enrolled himself into a hard core martial arts class. However, none of that happen. That is what I am mostly upset about.

Iron Fist S2 took the easy route and in doing so they cheapened the mythology and multiple characterizations of characters Even the fact that the fist has been taken before in the comics does not change that. Since the way it was done in the show came across as uninventive and incredibly weak. In the comics each time it was done there was a process and actual weight behind it. Season two did not have that. And that is just one thing, there are quite a few others that demonstrate that the production team do not care about the character. In the end their final product displays that and why the reviews are still over all poor.

I respect your opinion bro. I think that’s what us Iron Fist fans on this thread try to do. We have our differences but we can still enjoy the character. 😁.

This thread got me thinking about something that always bothered me a bit in the Immortal Iron Fist series. Why in the world did the writers (Brubaker and Fraction, I believe) give the Golden Age Iron Fist the name Orson Randall? That seems so unnecessarily confusing. Randall is like a blending of Danny's surname (Rand) and his father's given name (Wendall). Danny and Wendall Rand were not related to Orson Randall, correct? But that name would have you believe otherwise.

Brubaker and Fraction retconned Wendall into being an orphan who was virtually adopted by Orson; he took the surname "Rand" from Orson as far as I can tell, but dropped the "all" off the end, perhaps after the fight they had where they parted ways. I believe the writers wanted a "so that's where that came from" moment, much like the new Star Trek films give McCoy a convoluted explanation of his nickname "Bones" rather than keep it as an affectionate nickname for a doctor (from "sawbones"). It is complicated and unnecessary, but then I'm not particularly keen on Orson as a character anyway.

Took the words out of my mouth Panic. It always seemed unclear how Wendell got that last name. I know he got the name from Orson, but the manner of it was odd. Wendell, this little Caucasian boy, just somehow ended up in Tibet. Kinda odd how Brubkaer treated that so ho-humly.

I think Finn Jones is really good is the role, not perfect but he have really taken his training seriously, and you can see that since Defenders, maybe he could be a little more muscular, but we could say the same thing for the actors of Punisher and Luke Cage, I remember that it was clearly a choice from the production, to have a Danny Rand/Jones thin, in some way his comics counterpart is the thin category too (more close to Spider-man); I think they have done this choice to contrast him to Daredevil, who is the big star of these tv show; these two heroes look like each others so I guess they try to differenciate them; it's probably for that him and Colleen look so young compared to the others cast from netflix show.

For Simone Missick, I like her in the role, I would have liked to have her and Danny together like in the comics; for Nicole Beharie I don't agree with you, she is too short for the role; we can't deny that Missick and Jones look like, alot, physically to their characters.

My main problems with the casting, despite I respect their works for their roles; it's Davos; physically too different to the role; and Jessica Henwick, I find her too young, and too "chubby", with a round face, too cute for the role, I would have prefered someone like Devon Aoki or specially Dichen Lachman, I would have loved to her in the role, someone who look fierce, but I guess like Danny they don't want probably to have a "double" of Elektra ? Chloe Bennett would have been better too (yes I know her and Lachman was already in AoS); the fact that Henwick have been in a little feud (but very very little) with Roy Thomas don't help the vision I have of her for the role.

I think apparently for peoples who complain, and I can agree, the ideal would have very martial artist for these roles who can act; but that difficult to find; to give more special training to Jones will change nothing, that too much physical training to a non expert; I think they have done a pretty good job for the fights, and the positive reactions for the season 2 prove that.

Somebody remembers the casting rumors for this show ? For Danny, Colleen, Davos etc... I remember Ray Park Jr for the movie, the infamous Lewis Tan (apparently it was not true); some peoples have suggested Christian Howard from Street Fighter, I don't know if he can act in such tv show, but it was my favorite choice.

I definitely think Finn improved physique wise for season 2. The difference is apparent when comparing him the first episode of season 2with any episode in season 1. He definitely got a lot more beef on him.

This is my favorite version of Sanford Greene's PM/IF:

pmif.jpeg

Beautiful bro!

[macjr33]

Just finished Iron Fist Season 2.

Overall, I thought this season was an improvement compared to season 1 and, while it had it weak points, I enjoyed season 1 and did not think it was as bad as everyone made it out to be.

However, despite my thinking this season was an improvement I can't help but think that Marvel/Netflix just had the wrong approach with regards to Iron Fist and now I am not sure what they should do.

In hindsight, if they were to continue with the casting of Finn Jones as Danny Rand (i.e. keeping him caucasian) they should have spent the first season focusing on Danny's relationship with Luke Cage and Misty Knight and using the show to explore themes that have existed in the comics regarding the socio-econonmic and racial dynamics between Danny and Luke and he should have been in a relationship with Misty. I think given the current dynamics in the US, there could have been something powerful to say here.

Honestly, the best version of Danny I felt we have seen was his guest appearance on Luke Cage. Had we got that Danny from the start, I don't think you would have had nearly the backlash the series received because there is a more clearly defined reason for keeping the character as he is in the comics. Once you had won people over with season 1, then in season 2 you move into the more mystical stuff with perhaps the introduction of the other immortal weapons. Or you just do one season of Luke Cage and one season of Iron Fist and go right into the Heroes for Hire (which also incorporates the Daughters of the Dragon).

However, they instead made matters worse by putting Danny with Colleen (I think Jones and Henwick seriously lack chemistry; though I like Henwick as Colleen) and having him fight the Hand which plays right into the complaints that a lot of people had with series going in with regards to the "white-savior trope" and Asian stereotypes. The optics just don't look good.

Now I feel like this season was an attempt to win back viewers who didn't like season 1; however, they may have done so at the expense of more hardcore Iron Fist fans. I don't really think that people who hated season 1 were won over by season 2 and some hardcore Iron Fist fans may be mad that now Colleen has the power of the Iron Fist. I was actually ok with the ending given what we saw with Danny in Japan at the end; however, I still think this series is lacking a bit of direction and they still have a ways to go to get it on track.

Couple other random thoughts, thought Ward's character was awesome this season and really enjoyed his relationship with Danny. As a hardcore Daredevil fan, I was thoroughly pleased with how they treated Typhoid Mary and thought Alice Eve did an amazing job. Hoping she shows up in Daredevil as some point.

[DragonsChi]

Just finished Iron Fist Season 2.

Overall, I thought this season was an improvement compared to season 1 and, while it had it weak points, I enjoyed season 1 and did not think it was as bad as everyone made it out to be.

However, despite my thinking this season was an improvement I can't help but think that Marvel/Netflix just had the wrong approach with regards to Iron Fist and now I am not sure what they should do.

In hindsight, if they were to continue with the casting of Finn Jones as Danny Rand (i.e. keeping him caucasian) they should have spent the first season focusing on Danny's relationship with Luke Cage and Misty Knight and using the show to explore themes that have existed in the comics regarding the socio-econonmic and racial dynamics between Danny and Luke and he should have been in a relationship with Misty. I think given the current dynamics in the US, there could have been something powerful to say here.

Honestly, the best version of Danny I felt we have seen was his guest appearance on Luke Cage. Had we got that Danny from the start, I don't think you would have had nearly the backlash the series received because there is a more clearly defined reason for keeping the character as he is in the comics. Once you had won people over with season 1, then in season 2 you move into the more mystical stuff with perhaps the introduction of the other immortal weapons. Or you just do one season of Luke Cage and one season of Iron Fist and go right into the Heroes for Hire (which also incorporates the Daughters of the Dragon).

However, they instead made matters worse by putting Danny with Colleen (I think Jones and Henwick seriously lack chemistry; though I like Henwick as Colleen) and having him fight the Hand which plays right into the complaints that a lot of people had with series going in with regards to the "white-savior trope" and Asian stereotypes. The optics just don't look good.

Now I feel like this season was an attempt to win back viewers who didn't like season 1; however, they may have done so at the expense of more hardcore Iron Fist fans. I don't really think that people who hated season 1 were won over by season 2 and some hardcore Iron Fist fans may be mad that now Colleen has the power of the Iron Fist. I was actually ok with the ending given what we saw with Danny in Japan at the end; however, I still think this series is lacking a bit of direction and they still have a ways to go to get it on track.

Couple other random thoughts, thought Ward's character was awesome this season and really enjoyed his relationship with Danny. As a hardcore Daredevil fan, I was thoroughly pleased with how they treated Typhoid Mary and thought Alice Eve did an amazing job. Hoping she shows up in Daredevil as some point.

Incredible post! Well thought out and I agree with several things you have said here.

[Mr MajestiK]

Just finished Iron Fist Season 2.

Overall, I thought this season was an improvement compared to season 1 and, while it had it weak points, I enjoyed season 1 and did not think it was as bad as everyone made it out to be.

However, despite my thinking this season was an improvement I can't help but think that Marvel/Netflix just had the wrong approach with regards to Iron Fist and now I am not sure what they should do.

In hindsight, if they were to continue with the casting of Finn Jones as Danny Rand (i.e. keeping him caucasian) they should have spent the first season focusing on Danny's relationship with Luke Cage and Misty Knight and using the show to explore themes that have existed in the comics regarding the socio-econonmic and racial dynamics between Danny and Luke and he should have been in a relationship with Misty. I think given the current dynamics in the US, there could have been something powerful to say here.

Honestly, the best version of Danny I felt we have seen was his guest appearance on Luke Cage. Had we got that Danny from the start, I don't think you would have had nearly the backlash the series received because there is a more clearly defined reason for keeping the character as he is in the comics. Once you had won people over with season 1, then in season 2 you move into the more mystical stuff with perhaps the introduction of the other immortal weapons. Or you just do one season of Luke Cage and one season of Iron Fist and go right into the Heroes for Hire (which also incorporates the Daughters of the Dragon).

However, they instead made matters worse by putting Danny with Colleen (I think Jones and Henwick seriously lack chemistry; though I like Henwick as Colleen) and having him fight the Hand which plays right into the complaints that a lot of people had with series going in with regards to the "white-savior trope" and Asian stereotypes. The optics just don't look good.

Now I feel like this season was an attempt to win back viewers who didn't like season 1; however, they may have done so at the expense of more hardcore Iron Fist fans. I don't really think that people who hated season 1 were won over by season 2 and some hardcore Iron Fist fans may be mad that now Colleen has the power of the Iron Fist. I was actually ok with the ending given what we saw with Danny in Japan at the end; however, I still think this series is lacking a bit of direction and they still have a ways to go to get it on track.

Couple other random thoughts, thought Ward's character was awesome this season and really enjoyed his relationship with Danny. As a hardcore Daredevil fan, I was thoroughly pleased with how they treated Typhoid Mary and thought Alice Eve did an amazing job. Hoping she shows up in Daredevil as some point.

Solid post.

[Penultimate Warrior]

Brubaker and Fraction retconned Wendall into being an orphan who was virtually adopted by Orson; he took the surname "Rand" from Orson as far as I can tell, but dropped the "all" off the end, perhaps after the fight they had where they parted ways. I believe the writers wanted a "so that's where that came from" moment, much like the new Star Trek films give McCoy a convoluted explanation of his nickname "Bones" rather than keep it as an affectionate nickname for a doctor (from "sawbones"). It is complicated and unnecessary, but then I'm not particularly keen on Orson as a character anyway.

Thanks for this!

[Jekyll]

Just finished yesterday. WOW! This season was really good and a HUGE improvement over season one. As a fan of Iron Fist I enjoyed all the Easter eggs and setting up of other stories to be adapted in future seasons. I like Finn in the role and each time he appears in a new show he has shown improvement and commitment to the role. Also as someone who wasn’t crazy about either Ward or Misty they both won me over in this season. This season is definitely in my top three of the Marvel Netflix Universe.
Now if we could just have Danny back in a comic again!

[Daniel22]

Really? What was their objection?

A female minority took up a role/mantle/name/etc from a white male. Their objections when something like that happens are always loud and limitless.

[Blind Wedjat]

I'm half way through Iron Fist season 2 right now. Unfortunately I read spoilers somewhere else by accident so I have an idea what happens at the end. I won't be discussing that bit until I watch it for myself, but I will talk about what I've seen so far.

Overall it is an improvement from the first season. The action scenes are much better shot, choreographed and performed by everyone involved. The story and script is a lot better too. I haven't felt any of those unnecessary dumb moments like the first season, which is a good thing. Colleen, Ward, Davos and Mary Walker/Typhoid Mary are all fun to watch.

That's about it for positives. I do think it's good, but there's still a lot of stuff I'm not sold on.

First off is Finn Jones/Danny Rand. Danny is really just such an unlikable character to me in his own show. I wouldn't act like I'm an Iron Fist connoisseur (only read the Brubaker run in full), but I feel as though the depiction of his character lacks imagination.

There's not much that separates MCU Iron Fist from the Batmans, Green Arrows, and Daredevils of this world. Whether it's comic book accurate or not, Danny Rand being overtly serious is not appealing to me. I cannot unsee the constant scowl and eyebrow furrow Finn Jones always has on his face. I feel as though the showrunner and writer should have gone out of their way to differentiate him enough from Matt Murdock's personality, especially considering they now have him doing what Daredevil was in his stead. Yes, the show can keep the grit, but at least Danny be different.

I always felt Danny Rand should more or less be depicted as a kung-fu Spider-Man type: Chill, laid back and 'zen' personality, sarcastic with a dry wit, and quipping/cracking jokes in the midst of battle. It's a lot more frustrating when you have seen Finn Jones pull this off (in Luke Cage season 2), but is restricted to the same boring personality in his own show. Finn is pulling off the action sequences, but he isn't menacing at all. Every time he says he's gonna break someone, I can't take him seriously.

Additionally t's better to make fun of a ridiculous (and almost problematic) premise of a rich white kid who learned mystical kung-fu, doesn't understand modern culture and likes hip-hop music than to force audiences to take it seriously. Danny Rand should take the his duty and creation into the Iron Fist seriously, yes, but he should also be aware of how ridiculous it sounds and looks. This is even better if you can't make audiences believe it by seeing it. How underwhelming is it if we keep having to be told and not shown that Danny fought a dragon, when everyone in the show thinks it's bullcrap, Danny thinks it's the most serious thing in the worldbut you can't even show it from his perspective? The audience is forced to accept the perspective of everyone else. However, if you have Danny acknowledge that is is ridiculous, you've found at least what I think is a good narrative and balance.

Differentiating Danny in this way will also improve his dynamic with Davos. The two of them really are not that different at all. They both take almost everything really seriously and have hot tempers. The difference is that Davos is a lot more focused in what he wants to be and is a brutal fighter. The mirror image hero/villain thing works best when the pair are different in personality in my opinion. Danny and Davos are practically the same kind of person. But if the show had gone out of their way to contrast a carefree Danny with a overly stoic Davos, then you can have engaging ways to bounce each character of the other. This could have also helped in making Danny's victory of Davos in the tournament a lot more conceivable, as someone with that kind of personality would be more likely to use a trick of sunlight into the eye as a tactic, opposed to someone who would try to win by sheer brute force.

Speaking of Davos, I'm still not sure how I feel about him. One one hand, the character works well with Sacha Dawan's acting capabilities. He, despite his stature, feels intimidating. He's great in action sequences and pretty much in all his scenes too. And I think I feel sorry for him too. Here's a guy who had his birthright stolen from (why this is his birthright I have no idea) him by an outsider who abandoned his post.

Why are these two even 'brothers' again? Making them care for each other in my opinion was a mistake even though there might have been some appeal to it. Yes, it's cliche to have the native hate the outsider guy, but there's more than enough reason to have Davos not like Danny. His mother didn't (who he seemed closer too), his father did which should make him envious, and Danny might have cheated in the challenge fight (with Davos' father's intervention ensuring that victory). Moreover, that tournament fight played out like two people aggressively competing for the same thing and might hate each other. They fought for a whole day, hardly showed any mercy towards each other and were both fighting to win. I'm pretty sure Danny was going to kill Davos before Lei Kung stopped the fight, and Danny just walked away. I mean, what? How is this good or compelling writing? You beat your 'brother' to a pulp, and Danny who's "compassion is his weakness" doesn't even stay for an "I'm sorry?"

Additionally, why does Davos have a British accent? Seriously, why? People in K'un-L'un do not, so why does he? Sacha can't turn off his accent? Finn and Jessica are both doing it (and they sound great). I find it hard to believe that someone with that posh sounding accent doesn't know what meatballs are.

I also really don't think the main plots and subplots are meshing well together. Maybe it'll be better as the episodes go by, but I'm just not feeling it. Either Typhoid Mary or Davos should have been the villain. Combining that with the triad wars, Joy Meachum, and Colleen's past isn't flowing together in my opinion.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Just finished Iron Fist Season 2.

Overall, I thought this season was an improvement compared to season 1 and, while it had it weak points, I enjoyed season 1 and did not think it was as bad as everyone made it out to be.

However, despite my thinking this season was an improvement I can't help but think that Marvel/Netflix just had the wrong approach with regards to Iron Fist and now I am not sure what they should do.

In hindsight, if they were to continue with the casting of Finn Jones as Danny Rand (i.e. keeping him caucasian) they should have spent the first season focusing on Danny's relationship with Luke Cage and Misty Knight and using the show to explore themes that have existed in the comics regarding the socio-econonmic and racial dynamics between Danny and Luke and he should have been in a relationship with Misty. I think given the current dynamics in the US, there could have been something powerful to say here.

Honestly, the best version of Danny I felt we have seen was his guest appearance on Luke Cage. Had we got that Danny from the start, I don't think you would have had nearly the backlash the series received because there is a more clearly defined reason for keeping the character as he is in the comics. Once you had won people over with season 1, then in season 2 you move into the more mystical stuff with perhaps the introduction of the other immortal weapons. Or you just do one season of Luke Cage and one season of Iron Fist and go right into the Heroes for Hire (which also incorporates the Daughters of the Dragon).

However, they instead made matters worse by putting Danny with Colleen (I think Jones and Henwick seriously lack chemistry; though I like Henwick as Colleen) and having him fight the Hand which plays right into the complaints that a lot of people had with series going in with regards to the "white-savior trope" and Asian stereotypes. The optics just don't look good.

Now I feel like this season was an attempt to win back viewers who didn't like season 1; however, they may have done so at the expense of more hardcore Iron Fist fans. I don't really think that people who hated season 1 were won over by season 2 and some hardcore Iron Fist fans may be mad that now Colleen has the power of the Iron Fist. I was actually ok with the ending given what we saw with Danny in Japan at the end; however, I still think this series is lacking a bit of direction and they still have a ways to go to get it on track.

Couple other random thoughts, thought Ward's character was awesome this season and really enjoyed his relationship with Danny. As a hardcore Daredevil fan, I was thoroughly pleased with how they treated Typhoid Mary and thought Alice Eve did an amazing job. Hoping she shows up in Daredevil as some point.

All they can do is stay the course with season 3 and maybe do a H4H show as a joint season 4 for Luke and Danny.

The Trail of the seven masters from the Brissom/Perkins run feels like it be cheaper to do than the seven cities stuff. But exploring Kun Lun would help sell Danny as a character and help with the white savior backlash.

It would help but wont really solve it. Until Marvel puts out a show with an asian lead and an indepth look at the asian american expierence, people are always going to be unsatisfied. Same with Marvel and women leads or LGBT expierence.

Even if he was asian it wouldn't make season 1 any better. They didn't do a good job making Danny compelling as a solo lead. Outside of making Danny's motivation weaker, season 1 had alot of good ideas but it just didn't come together well. He's too defined as a team player and most of his solo material is better done elsewhere. Most of his strengths weren't played and his weaknesses weren't curtailed.