Iron Fist: The Living Weapon Appreciation

[DragonsChi]

I hear ya bro. As I mentioned in my post, Iron Fist fans, especially on this thread, have been accomodating to the critics. I for one was supportive of Danny Rand being played by whomever, and the possibility of someone else taking the Iron Fist title.

But saying that Danny doesn't deserve to be Iron Fist because he's an outworlder? Danny proved to be Iron Fist right here.

See this is where I was too. As long as the character was Danny Rand and Danny Rands story I could care less what color the actor was. It was the tearing down of Danny because he was White or whatever else is what had me put off and confused by the "twitter" crowd.

For me, I'm fine with the length of the fight. Actually, I think the fight went pretty long. For me, the "fight" included The One's explanation, the dialogue, and the betrayal in addition to the martial arts. All of that took a majority of the issue. Thus, it felt meaty and weighty.

The fight showed Danny's resolve and his willingness to persevere. It wasn't Kung Fu pretty at all, but really raw and emotional. Come to think of it, that display actually corresponds to what we've seen with Danny, like his fight with the Chi-Lin Swierczynski's run or the entirety of the Andrews' issues. So, again props to Brisson for acknowledging continuity!

I didn't notice that the first time I read it but reading again I can see what you are talking about. Great catch!

Y'know the more I read this issue, the more I enjoy it. For instance, I noticed this one panel that focuses on Divine Wolf's face when he sees Chosin betray Danny. That's a great moment. It makes me realize that Divine Wolf has his honor.

At the same time, I can't help but draw parallels between Divine Wolf and Davos. Both are very tied to K'un Lun and have their grudges against outworlders, namely Orson and Danny. What would happen if these two meet?

Oh, I totally want those two to team up. I was thinking as soon we got to see the Wolf beneath the hood that I want to see these guys together. However, I have a feeling if they did meet Davos would double cross Wolf to grab his Chi. Davos just can not be trusted around people with harnessed Chi, I feel. He always came off to me like a semi-reformed addict. Davos will be doing good for a little bit but as soon as some with Chi is in the area or someone mentions something about the power or Iron Fist he's back trying to get his fix.

[DragonsChi]

I think it is far more interesting if it is ambiguous as who is truly the better fighter between the two. With his chi Shang "should not" have a chance if Danny is written correctly. Danny would be too fast, strong and technical. He can greatly increase his physical abilities (strength, speed and reflexes) and that was before Orson's chi and "The Book of the Iron Fist." I felt that Danny would be more technical in some aspects of martial arts technique but Shang would be better at using various weapons. Shang has been written as being better focused than Danny and a more accomplished instructor--various character have specifically gone and trained with Shang. I always felt that Danny's Kung Fu should be unique since it derives from K'un- Lun and not regular earth. As for knowing various styles, Danny is a master of various fighting styles from earth. But as I wrote earlier, it is far more interesting when it is a bit ambiguous as who is the better fighter. That said Danny is by far the more interesting character since it is my opinion that writers have not truly delved into Shang and given his character layers. The classic marvel way is to give a character flaws and that has not been the case with Shang.

I'm intrigued too. I hope there is a rivalry between the two. Brisson hinted at in his interview:



There's always been a mutual respect between Danny and Shang, but we fans can't help who is truly the better of the two. Personally, it all comes down to the iron fist. No chi powers, a straight up match, Shang's going to win. I'm completely confident in saying that because Shang has trained longer and is more disciplined that Danny. But with powers? Even if Shang could multiple himself, he can't take someone who can knock out a Hulk:

Personally think in a straight up H2H, it's Shang-Chi 7-3/6-4, but including powers, I think it's Danny 8-2.

I was reading up on fighting styles not too long ago to properly assess the upcoming Mayweather/MacGregor fight and found an interesting video of MMA fighters vs. One Style masters. The MMA fighters seem to have a sizable edge across the board, though with Shang-Chi's Kung-fu, I feel like it covers enough fighting styles to make up for it despite Danny knowing multiple arts. There is something to be said that Shang is also knowledgable in multiple arts outside of Kung-Fu as well. Sometimes knowledge truly is power. Also, I agree that Shang is much more disciplined. Danny is definitely more loose, I feel, and would especially be more loose fighting a friendly rival than someone like Davos.

I personally like them tied in terms of skill without Danny using the Fist with Danny given a slight edge simply due the fact that we have seen him face more super villains and "powered" martial artist. From what we have seen I would say that Danny would win 6 out of 10 matches without using his Chi. But it would be incredibly close with both of them barely standing by the end of it.

However, with his Chi.....I feel Shang is at a disadvantage. Unless he still has that cool duplication ability. Then it could potentially go either way really.

I know this isn't Shangs thread but I really hope we see him use that power in the coming issues. It would be great for Shang and I'm sure more people would take interest in him because of it. He would be a hell of a lot color then Multiple Man and have far less baggage.

[DragonsChi]

Pav, thanks for mentioning this! It's difficult to reconcile all these disparate aspects of Danny's personality, so it's pretty cool someone is trying to. And yeah, again, I want to read about Pei. I hope that she is the future of the Iron Fist legacy and K'un Lun. And I would love, LOVE to see Danny play the mentor role in that. I know that Danny could give Pei a martial arts upbringing that she wouldn't be able to get in K'un Lun. I've said it before, I'll say it again, I'll keep championing it, Danny knows the best martial artists in the Marvel Universe. Colleen Wing, Shang-Chi, Black Widow, Black Panther, Elektra, Daredevil, Hawkeye, Captain America, I could see every one of these heroes becoming a teacher to Pei with Danny tying it all together for her.

I pray, PRAY that Kaare Andrews has read some of my posts and is taking this into account as he writes his series.

Yeah, me too concerning the slayer's child. That would be a cool thread for a story. Perhaps he'll get to meet Pei? Maybe they'll fight one another for the Iron Fist title? Keeping the iron fists crossed!

My feelings on Pei.....

This is a character that I personally want to LOVE but am more so afraid of due to the current state of Marvel. I would be down for all the things you mentioned here especially the aspect of Danny growing as a character by having protege. Even the idea of the Iron Fist brand/franchise expanding has me a little giddy. But again the current state of Marvel isn't to build up the Legacy/New/Copy characters alongside the Original/Old characters. But instead to minimize and to some degree tarnish the old characters.

If Marvel demonstrated that they can empower both characters I would be all for Pei but I have no faith that they would do that at this point. The last thing Danny needs right now is a new character who potentially makes him look incompetent like Kate Bishop does for Clint or have the fan bases split like Sam Alexander/Richard Rider or with Wally West/NU Wally West/Barry Allen. I have been a Danny Rand fan for years, as I'm suremany here have been as well, but people collectively are just now taking to him due to him having more of a role in the Marvel Universe. I feel more focus on Pei in the current state of comics and Marvel will only hinder that progression at this point.

Edit: I also hope that people do not take that as me disliking "new" characters. I personally have been enjoying Amadeus Cho, Ms. Marvel, and the New Ghost Rider. I just do not want Danny thrown into limbo for a period of time or be downplayed like so many other characters have recently.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Hey as a multiple man fan I take umbrage with that. Honestly Shang-chi's duplicate power sounds like a cool thing for him but they've vaguely defined what chi can do so that could be what his story is.

I'm hoping there is a Danny/Colleen team-up at some point. She didn't get any focus in IIF and you could have her be the one training/looking after Pai while Danny's travelling the world looking for his chi.

[Of Atlantis]

Hey as a multiple man fan I take umbrage with that. Honestly Shang-chi's duplicate power sounds like a cool thing for him but they've vaguely defined what chi can do so that could be what his story is.

I'm hoping there is a Danny/Colleen team-up at some point. She didn't get any focus in IIF and you could have her be the one training/looking after Pai while Danny's travelling the world looking for his chi.

I'm kind of torn over whether they should push for more powers like that with Shang-Chi. On one hand, he's always been a very traditional martial artist and I've always dug how technical he is. You rarely see the type of attention to detail artists use to fighting styles. Steve Rogers fighting technique is primarily judo, but we mostly only see him punch and throw the shield. With Shang-Chi, we always got the sense he has a very specific fighting style.

On the other hand... that multiply technique is beyond cool, and I almost feel like to keep up with the other powered heroes, he may need some more flash like that, especially if Marvel's prepping him to stand among other Defenders.

[Digifiend]

13	11	Defenders	1	$4.99	Marvel	64,253
105	109	Iron Fist	4	$3.99	Marvel	24,706

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...7/2017-06.html

[DragonsChi]

I'm kind of torn over whether they should push for more powers like that with Shang-Chi. On one hand, he's always been a very traditional martial artist and I've always dug how technical he is. You rarely see the type of attention to detail artists use to fighting styles. Steve Rogers fighting technique is primarily judo, but we mostly only see him punch and throw the shield. With Shang-Chi, we always got the sense he has a very specific fighting style.

On the other hand... that multiply technique is beyond cool, and I almost feel like to keep up with the other powered heroes, he may need some more flash like that, especially if Marvel's prepping him to stand among other Defenders.

I understand what you mean and I agree with you especially with most of what you said in the first paragraph.

But I also feel that Shang gets to easily lost in the shuffle of the multitudes of martial artist that make up the MU. Then factor in how many semi-normal martial artist with unique and interesting gimmicks, it just becomes to easy for Shang to be seen as boring. Which is a shame because Shang and his story is really interesting.

I feel if Marvel/the powers that be let Shang keep his multiply technique that the ability wont and shouldn't define or consume him. But instead just give him something he is known for and can pull out when things get a little more than he can handle. For example if he had a solo I envision that Shang would go a whole issue just using his spy and his martial arts skills. Then at the conclusion of the issue or story line facing the final threat he would pull out his duplication powers because he was out gunned and/or matched.

He would be detailed slick martial arts guy for the most part but still have the extra spice to keep people intrigued. Using his powers in only fun scenarios for every day life stuff and when he is facing powerful foes.

[Pav]

There's something about a Shang Chi without powers that seems... pure. Like, in this world of super-powered people, Shang's mentality and physical abilities are enough to make him an equal.

But comics are supposed to be fun, and it's fun to experiment.

It's interesting that writers gave Shang the same power as the Collective Man, essentially.

Personally, the only reason I'd be against him keeping the power long term is basically it might negatively affect Madrox, who's one of my faves.

-Pav, who doesn't want him staying dead...

[Tien Long]

Poorly.

spoilers:

Easily choked out by Luke Cage. His interactions were as if he were meeting them for the first time.

end of spoilers

Yeah, that threw me off as well. Perhaps Defenders is meant for the new reader? The scene reminded me of Bendis' Avengers Assemble series which was released right after the Avengers movie.

See this is where I was too. As long as the character was Danny Rand and Danny Rands story I could care less what color the actor was. It was the tearing down of Danny because he was White or whatever else is what had me put off and confused by the "twitter" crowd.

A conversation with a friend this past weekend reminded me of the controversy. She, like other critics, mentioned the troubling factor of white saviors and cultural appropriation. Add to the fact that it's yet again another white character who gets the spotlight, and for those reasons she didn't watch the series.

As I'm an Iron Fist fan, her comments stung, but not as much as they might have if they were made a year ago. I've had a lot of time to think on the subject and I've come to this conclusion: regardless of whether the hero is a person of color and disadvantaged or white and privileged, a hero is a hero. Danny especially has shown selflessness and acceptance of others. For my friend (and others) Danny's ethnicity and privilege are the prominent points. For me, though, I focus on Danny's selflessness, acceptance, and heroism.

Now, like DragonsChi and other Iron Fist posters, we were very open to the idea of an Asian-American playing the role. Personally, after seeing Lewis Tan in the series, I felt maybe yeah, he should have been Danny Rand. I'm still open and supportive of PoC playing roles that used to be for whites. Talent and skill should be the determining factors.

However, as we've seen in Brisson's latest story, a white Danny Rand has more than proven himself to have that skill and talent.

I didn't notice that the first time I read it but reading again I can see what you are talking about. Great catch!

Oh, I totally want those two to team up. I was thinking as soon we got to see the Wolf beneath the hood that I want to see these guys together. However, I have a feeling if they did meet Davos would double cross Wolf to grab his Chi. Davos just can not be trusted around people with harnessed Chi, I feel. He always came off to me like a semi-reformed addict. Davos will be doing good for a little bit but as soon as some with Chi is in the area or someone mentions something about the power or Iron Fist he's back trying to get his fix.[/QUOTE]

Thanks bro!

My feelings on Pei.....

This is a character that I personally want to LOVE but am more so afraid of due to the current state of Marvel. I would be down for all the things you mentioned here especially the aspect of Danny growing as a character by having protege. Even the idea of the Iron Fist brand/franchise expanding has me a little giddy. But again the current state of Marvel isn't to build up the Legacy/New/Copy characters alongside the Original/Old characters. But instead to minimize and to some degree tarnish the old characters.

If Marvel demonstrated that they can empower both characters I would be all for Pei but I have no faith that they would do that at this point. The last thing Danny needs right now is a new character who potentially makes him look incompetent like Kate Bishop does for Clint or have the fan bases split like Sam Alexander/Richard Rider or with Wally West/NU Wally West/Barry Allen. I have been a Danny Rand fan for years, as I'm suremany here have been as well, but people collectively are just now taking to him due to him having more of a role in the Marvel Universe. I feel more focus on Pei in the current state of comics and Marvel will only hinder that progression at this point.

Edit: I also hope that people do not take that as me disliking "new" characters. I personally have been enjoying Amadeus Cho, Ms. Marvel, and the New Ghost Rider. I just do not want Danny thrown into limbo for a period of time or be downplayed like so many other characters have recently.

Hey no offense taken. The concern is there. However, I think with Marvel's legacy, there is the push to make sure the focus is still on the traditional characters. I think if Pei were to come into a post-Legacy Marvel, there is the chance that both she and Danny would be handled well.

[Tien Long]

I'm kind of torn over whether they should push for more powers like that with Shang-Chi. On one hand, he's always been a very traditional martial artist and I've always dug how technical he is. You rarely see the type of attention to detail artists use to fighting styles. Steve Rogers fighting technique is primarily judo, but we mostly only see him punch and throw the shield. With Shang-Chi, we always got the sense he has a very specific fighting style.

On the other hand... that multiply technique is beyond cool, and I almost feel like to keep up with the other powered heroes, he may need some more flash like that, especially if Marvel's prepping him to stand among other Defenders.

I understand what you mean and I agree with you especially with most of what you said in the first paragraph.

But I also feel that Shang gets to easily lost in the shuffle of the multitudes of martial artist that make up the MU. Then factor in how many semi-normal martial artist with unique and interesting gimmicks, it just becomes to easy for Shang to be seen as boring. Which is a shame because Shang and his story is really interesting.

I feel if Marvel/the powers that be let Shang keep his multiply technique that the ability wont and shouldn't define or consume him. But instead just give him something he is known for and can pull out when things get a little more than he can handle. For example if he had a solo I envision that Shang would go a whole issue just using his spy and his martial arts skills. Then at the conclusion of the issue or story line facing the final threat he would pull out his duplication powers because he was out gunned and/or matched.

He would be detailed slick martial arts guy for the most part but still have the extra spice to keep people intrigued. Using his powers in only fun scenarios for every day life stuff and when he is facing powerful foes.

There's something about a Shang Chi without powers that seems... pure. Like, in this world of super-powered people, Shang's mentality and physical abilities are enough to make him an equal.

But comics are supposed to be fun, and it's fun to experiment.

It's interesting that writers gave Shang the same power as the Collective Man, essentially.

Personally, the only reason I'd be against him keeping the power long term is basically it might negatively affect Madrox, who's one of my faves.

-Pav, who doesn't want him staying dead...

I agree that Shang needs that extra something. But I also agree with keeping him pure. But how do we do that?

During Hickman's run, there were a lot of attempts to add something extra to Shang. Pym Particles, and duplication powers are big, nice, splashy things, but for me, eh, they just didn't feel they were natural to Shang. The duplication powers feel like a dilution in a way. There should be only one Shang, so when there are many of them, he doesn't seem unique.

I would want something that fits with his Kung Fu background. The Stark nunchukus were a start. Honestly, I think it would be cool if he got a device that could change into any Kung Fu weapon he'd want a la Cap's photonic shield:




Now that thing could change into shields, staffs, blades, the whole nine yards. Imagine if Shang had that?

[Of Atlantis]

13	11	Defenders	1	$4.99	Marvel	64,253
105	109	Iron Fist	4	$3.99	Marvel	24,706

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...7/2017-06.html

Defenders #1 started off with a surprisingly low number. Compared to Strange and Black Panther's books who both sold well in their debut, this isn't a very high number.

Iron Fist seems to have steadied itself after a heavy drop. Not much of a drop at all from #3. And with #5 being as solid as it was, I'm hoping this book finds its niche in the mid 20k range and lasts a while.

[Eduardo]

http://www.cbr.com/marvel-comixology...al-iron-fists/

Available beginning Friday on comiXology and Kindle, the six-issue biweekly series follows Pei, introduced in Andrews’ Iron Fist: The Living Weapon as a young female monk from K’un-Lun and the youngest person ever to bear the mark of the Iron Fist. As Pei faces the trials of school, Danny Rand confronts his greatest challenge yet — training her. But even as they come to terms with each other, a growing threat emerges that will require more than one pair of Iron Fists to defeat.

The first issue is available, and a preview can be seen here: https://www.comixology.com/Immortal-...l-comic/549229

[Digifiend]

Blimey... we hear nothing for two years and then it suddenly springs up without warning! That was meant to be an ANAD book!

[Tien Long]

http://www.cbr.com/marvel-comixology...al-iron-fists/



The first issue is available, and a preview can be seen here: https://www.comixology.com/Immortal-...l-comic/549229

Thanks for the notification. Just finished the issue. I'll be honest, there are some pluses, but there are also some minuses. Overall, though, I'm intrigued, and I'm glad to say that it is because of Pei.

I'll peruse the issue once more and try to give more of a review in the next couple of days.

[DragonsChi]

I agree that Shang needs that extra something. But I also agree with keeping him pure. But how do we do that?

During Hickman's run, there were a lot of attempts to add something extra to Shang. Pym Particles, and duplication powers are big, nice, splashy things, but for me, eh, they just didn't feel they were natural to Shang. The duplication powers feel like a dilution in a way. There should be only one Shang, so when there are many of them, he doesn't seem unique.

I would want something that fits with his Kung Fu background. The Stark nunchukus were a start. Honestly, I think it would be cool if he got a device that could change into any Kung Fu weapon he'd want a la Cap's photonic shield:




Now that thing could change into shields, staffs, blades, the whole nine yards. Imagine if Shang had that?

I guess it would be interesting for a time if Shang had photonic weapons or a device that could produce anytype of weapon. However, in the long run I don't feel it will be consistent or really enough to bring in and hold fans for Shang. But I digress as this is Iron Fist thread, would hate to take the conversation to far from him.

http://www.cbr.com/marvel-comixology...al-iron-fists/



The first issue is available, and a preview can be seen here: https://www.comixology.com/Immortal-...l-comic/549229

Hmmm....I not sure I want to subscribe to this service to read a book that may mainly focus on Pei.

I have a few questions like...Why hasn't any news been released about this? Has anyone heard if this will be the only way to pick up the New Immortal Iron Fist series by Kaare Andrews? If so I may have to do a hard pass for now, at least until more is revealed.