Iron Fist: The Living Weapon Appreciation

[Tien Long]

IMHO, Iron Fists #2 was garbage. It was just another entry in a long line of Marvel books where the straight, white, male hero is almost totally incompetent and female, minority is almost perfect. Let's imagine a book where, say, Psylocke trains a young, white boy in martial arts and psychic abilities but she's always messing things up and he's way better even though he just started. It would never happen.

As for all white, male heroes messing up to prop of the perfect minority, well, I can't really say. My experience of these things in the Marvel Universe is rather limited. Still, I do see when Matt Murdock trains Blindspot, Peter Parker guides Miles, or Bruce Banner talks with Amadeus Cho, these young heroes listen with respect and amiability to these individuals. Moreover, these individuals certainly haven't lost any respect in my eyes because of their conduct.

As for Danny's performance, I've had my complaints sure. I didn't like the way Andrews depicted Danny as being oblivious to Pei's treatment in school. This issue also had Danny scolding Pei for fighting, which did cast him in a negative light. However, Andrews explained it this way:

Yeah, Danny is not a father, and I don’t want him to be a dad. That’s not my intention. When you have a young person charged in your care, though, you have to be more than just a teacher. [Laughs] You have to take care of that person. And, like I said, he’s a bit of a selfish character. It’s not that he doesn’t care about Pei. It’s that he just doesn’t understand. He grew up in the private education system with all the money in the world. He may not understand what exactly he’s asking when he puts Pei into the public school system as an outsider.

Danny's heart is in the right place, but he doesn't understand what it's like to be in the public school system. This issue does show that Danny cares for Pei, but he doesn't know the appropriate way to do it. Yeah, he's messing up, but he's still growing as a mentor. That's a theme prevalent in a lot of stories, regardless of who takes on the role.

There will most definitely be a reckoning. And both Danny and Pei will come out better for it. Andrews mentioned it in his interview:

Yes, eventually their stories will be very connected. We begin with these two people, Danny and Pei, who are a little disconnected. Through this storyline we’re going to push them further apart and ultimately bring them back together and reinvest in their relationship. Hopefully, if everyone survives, they will be stronger for it and more connected than before, and will have learned lessons along the way about how to be who they are in the now and not who they think they should be.

With all of that aside, I respectfully disagree that Danny had a bad showing in this issue. The way that he took down those frog demon bikers (yeah, that's right, FROG DEMON BIKERS!) with the three-section-staff (YES, DANNY'S THREE-SECTION-STAFF COMES BACK!!!!) was totally cool. He's an imperfect hero, but a hero nonetheless.

At one point Pei even beats up a locker room of guys after incorrectly assuming they were part of a kidnapping. Even if she was correct (which might be revealed in the future?) imagine if that kind of hair-trigger use of violence was reversed? Imagine a comic where a young boy beats up a locker room full of girls on nothing more than a hunch? And then, when feeling guilty about it later, the mentor tells them not to feel guilty because "power should feel good."

Others may criticize beating up bullies. I (and I'm willing to bet many other posters) on the other hand can understand that behavior's reasoning. As for Madame Yeoh approving that, I took that as Madame Yeoh having an ulterior motive. Andrews is painting her to be the kind, benevolent helpful mentor and Danny's better half. But yeah, that "power should feel good" line? Obviously, that's villain talk. Bet you by issue #5, Madame Yeoh's revealed to be working for the bad guys and both Danny and Pei have to take her down.

Plus, Pei's new friends immediately ask where she's from -- a question which any good social justice person should know is against the rules. So, the book shouldn't even be welcome in that crowd.

In that particular context, new kids meeting one another, it's understandable kids would say that to one another. As someone who has been involved with education with kids from different parts of the world, I've heard kids say that before. People should realize that.

For shame all around, Iron Fists, for shame.

Let's give it a bit more time. Now, I've had my gripes, but I think the series will have Danny grow better as a mentor. And just to reiterate what I said before, Pei is quickly becoming one of my favorite characters! I'm very much looking forward to next issue when she tries cheerleading. GO PEI GO!

[JoeWithoutFear]

@Pav

When characters like Pei make "mistakes" it's usually because they are depicted as being so superior to the common folk around them that it becomes a sort of fish-out-of-water story. That's very different than a martial arts master who tries to clean the room and slips into a wall. If/when Pei starts making similar mistakes, I will happily accept the parity.

@Pav & Tien long

Also, if Madame Yeoh is revealed as an all-out villain that the reader should root against, and then Pei somehow acknowledges and/or amends for beating up those boys, I will gladly appreciate the justice. As it stands, Pei is written as a character who did something bad and was encouraged for it. Again, let me know when swapping those gender roles would receive the same treatment.

I'm glad that you both like Pei. In my perfect world, Pei and Danny would be equally flawed and admirable. If you already see it that way, by all means keep enjoying the book! But also don't be afraid to let someone like me voice what they see. Fair enough? =)

@Tien Long

Don't get me wrong, I think it's perfectly fine to ask where someone is from, but it is interesting to see that standard dropped when it is in the context of a piece of media that people enjoy.

[Pav]

Nevermind.

-Pav, who is tired...

[Tien Long]

Hey all. Just did my obligatory second reading of Iron Fists #2. Overall, I'm definitely this book. The title is quite apt. Indeed, what's really great about it is that it gives equal screen time to both Danny and Pei. Neither feels like a side character. It's cool how both their stories intersect with one another, especially towards the end. There were some moments that gave me pause, most notably the art. But in general I liked this title.

In any case, here are my full thoughts. Be warned, there be spoilers below!:

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- I definitely like Pei's characterization in this issue. Indeed, we see her built up as a character while at the same time playing against tropes. I'm willing to bet that many of us expected Pei to be a part of the unpopular, weirdo kid clique. She is not only accepted by this group, but also fits the mold of being an outsider. For most of the issue, Pei is a part of this group until she turns the tables and says she wants to try other doors. She wants to see what it's like to be part of the popular girls group. Thus, Pei is very admirable. I like the fact that she finds all of these differences to be so odd and limiting. I like how she wants to try things from different perspectives. That's a message that we should all appreciate.

- Regarding Danny, I really liked him in this issue as well. As I've mentioned previously Danny is messing up as a mentor here. At times, it can be comical, like when he slips while trying to teach Pei how to clean an apartment. At other times, it's sad. For instance, Danny scolds Pei for fighting against those Frog Demons, when in reality she not only helped Danny, but also still stuck to her vow. Danny shows that he's still learning the ropes of being a mentor. Indeed, I couldn't help but contrast him with Lei-Kung the Thunderer. Lei-Kung wouldn't slip and fall while cleaning an apartment. Lei-Kung wouldn't make mistakes. I'm willing to bet that Danny thinks that he can't be the Thunderer like Lei Kung was. As I mentioned before, Danny's heart is in the right place, it's just that he hasn't been in this position before.

- Madame Yeoh? Yeah, she's probably in cahoots with the main villain. The way that she seems a little too motherly, a little too supportive, a little too willing to feed Pei's violent tendencies, all of that means she's a villain. Aside from that, I was slightly (just slightly) irked at the way she is being depicted. A lot of Chinese don't use the term "Madame." Nor do they say "master" to their employers. They use titles like "Mr." So, there was a touch of Orientalism there. However, it does not distract me from enjoying this character.

- The art, well, I praised the art before. I've said that I liked it's indie vibe and it fit on Comixology. And yeah, the action scene was cool. Pei saved one of the C-Train girls and Danny used his three section staff (yah for the return of the three section staff!!!!!). But, it neared slightly on the cartoonish and was a little too indie. I do hope it improves.

- Love that the big bad might be Mara. This leads me to believe that Andrews reads this thread, because two years ago I guessed that the big bad in Iron Fist: The Living Weapon was Mara. That did not turn out to be correct. HOWEVER, apparently Andrews is making Mara the main villain here. Andrews, you are welcome !

So in conclusion, I'm digging this series. I love how Danny and Pei are getting equal treatment and are simultaneously being elevated as characters. I can't wait for the next issue!

[DragonsChi]

It was another great issue for sure! Issue #6 seems to had very little story progression in terms of the underlying plot but Ed Brison sure knows how to keep one engaged in his stories. I would not mind if Shan-Chi became a regular in the series! It would give Danny someone to play off of and allow Shang to get some more time out of limbo. Just a thought.....

A couple of thoughts:

- I keep wondering how did Shang-Chi find out that Danny was in trouble.
Throughout the issue, I was half-expecting Shang to betray Danny in some way,
and actually be the mastermind behind the kidnapping attempt. Seer's comments,
that Shang had nothing to do with this, cast some doubt on that.

Still, there's something Shang isn't saying here. What could it be? Is he really just looking out for a friend or does he have his own agenda with Liu-Shi, Cho-Shin, and K'un-Lun?

When the issue first got going I was wondering(secretly hoping) if this "sight army" may be Shang's clones turned bad or taken over by a villain but as it went on and it was revealed to be innocent people that theory went out of the window. Would have been cool though.

I do agree that Shang may know more than he is letting on. I very curious how the fight will go between him and Danny. Hopefully, Brison will be very descriptive in the differences in Shang's and Danny's style of martial arts as well as give a clear but fair showing of who would eventually best who in a match. I know verses matches can be silly at times and tiresome in others but this is one I have always wanted to see.

[DragonsChi]

Thanks for the post Eduardo! Here are a couple of my thoughts on it:





Danny's obtuse nature kinda got to me in Iron Fists. As a teacher, I was frustrated with the way that Danny seemed to be unaware of the treatment that Pei is enduring at an American public school. Still am in a way. However, I can relate to the fact that adults don't always catch these things. And yes, Danny's experiences are different. He may be aware of the bruises Pei is getting at school and may liken this to the treatment he got back in K'un Lun. But the sarcasm and cattiness of tween girls? He doesn't understand that.



Alright, Danny's heart is in the right place, but he may be off here. He reminds me in a way of Goku, and so I can overlook that. However, I do hope that Danny and Pei gain a better understanding.

On another note, yeah, Danny trying to clean the apartment with Kung Fu is funny. He's trying to be the Thunderer, and failing at it, which makes for good comedy. Here's hoping he becomes a good mentor here.



Here here! I'm glad that Andrews is the one to lay the foundation for Pei because quite honestly probably no one else would have done it. Andrews is building solid characterization for Pei here, and I do like what I'm seeing!

Andrews goes on to talk about the art (which gets better with each issue), the use of Chinese mythology and demons (hmmm, as the Chinese religion scholar here, I'm interested in this), and the timing of the series to coincide with SDCC (which was a brilliant move by the way).

Looking forward to more of this series!

I understand where you are coming from Long....I really do. But I honestly wouldn't take Danny's characterization in this title to heart. It's fairly clear that Andrews take in this series is set in a way to uplift Pei. I can see Danny giving a tough love type vibe to Pei based off his own "training" but when has Danny ever been spiteful or catty in any of his publications? Danny character has always been more gentle in nature and only showing a veracity in battle. The Danny that Andrews is writing is seems as if he was possessed by some other character entirely in moments.

I'm trying to give Iron Fists series a fair shot but at the moment it some what seems like my fears of "spin off" characters is slowly progressing in this title. I am just happy that we currently have three titles that featuring Danny Rand. If Iron Fists were the only representation we would be in trouble as fans as the characters progress. But at least with Brisson and Bendis others will see that the character is not as cruel as he is being depicted in Andrews title. Brisson especially seems to have captured Danny's truer nature while Andrews is clearly writing for Pei's uplifting as a character in the MU.

Wish writers would be more willing to uplift both the old and new characters without tarnishing one or the other. I can understand the aspect of wanting your creation to have a spotlight and long lasting career but I do feel it can be done without miswriting the other characters involved. *sigh*

I also do not agree with this Statement by Andrews...

Yeah, Danny is not a father, and I don’t want him to be a dad. That’s not my intention. When you have a young person charged in your care, though, you have to be more than just a teacher. [Laughs] You have to take care of that person. And, like I said, he’s a bit of a selfish character. It’s not that he doesn’t care about Pei. It’s that he just doesn’t understand. He grew up in the private education system with all the money in the world. He may not understand what exactly he’s asking when he puts Pei into the public school system as an outsider.

Danny has been depicted to having an after school/community out reach martial arts programs in some of the "rougher" areas of NYC since the 90's. There is no way that he could have done this without education on the public school systems. Andrews is clearly ignoring the back story in Immortal Weapons where it is shown Danny have a close relationship to another female pupil by the name of Jade. There we saw Danny experiencing first hand how tough the "systems" of the modern world could be. We also see he has a solid understanding of its cruel nature.

To go on further Pei isn't even Danny's first direct protege or did young Victor Alvarez aka Power Man get wiped away with Secret Wars?(rhetorical of course) This would have been another time where Danny would have gained understanding of a kid living in today's world. Like I said early Iron Fists is Andrews writing for Pei and now I will go further and saying that Andrews is writing for Andrews. ::SMH::

[Tien Long]

It was another great issue for sure! Issue #6 seems to had very little story progression in terms of the underlying plot but Ed Brison sure knows how to keep one engaged in his stories. I would not mind if Shan-Chi became a regular in the series! It would give Danny someone to play off of and allow Shang to get some more time out of limbo. Just a thought.....





When the issue first got going I was wondering(secretly hoping) if this "sight army" may be Shang's clones turned bad or taken over by a villain but as it went on and it was revealed to be innocent people that theory went out of the window. Would have been cool though.

I do agree that Shang may know more than he is letting on. I very curious how the fight will go between him and Danny. Hopefully, Brison will be very descriptive in the differences in Shang's and Danny's style of martial arts as well as give a clear but fair showing of who would eventually best who in a match. I know verses matches can be silly at times and tiresome in others but this is one I have always wanted to see.

Good point Dragon. The fans here have wanted to see a match between these two for a while. I'd also like to see the differences between the two characters' fighting styles. Additionally, I predict a big twist at the end of issue when Shang reveals why he came Danny's rescue. Looking forward to what it could be.

I understand where you are coming from Long....I really do. But I honestly wouldn't take Danny's characterization in this title to heart. It's fairly clear that Andrews take in this series is set in a way to uplift Pei. I can see Danny giving a tough love type vibe to Pei based off his own "training" but when has Danny ever been spiteful or catty in any of his publications? Danny character has always been more gentle in nature and only showing a veracity in battle. The Danny that Andrews is writing is seems as if he was possessed by some other character entirely in moments.

I'm trying to give Iron Fists series a fair shot but at the moment it some what seems like my fears of "spin off" characters is slowly progressing in this title. I am just happy that we currently have three titles that featuring Danny Rand. If Iron Fists were the only representation we would be in trouble as fans as the characters progress. But at least with Brisson and Bendis others will see that the character is not as cruel as he is being depicted in Andrews title. Brisson especially seems to have captured Danny's truer nature while Andrews is clearly writing for Pei's uplifting as a character in the MU.

Wish writers would be more willing to uplift both the old and new characters without tarnishing one or the other. I can understand the aspect of wanting your creation to have a spotlight and long lasting career but I do feel it can be done without miswriting the other characters involved. *sigh*

I also do not agree with this Statement by Andrews...


Danny has been depicted to having an after school/community out reach martial arts programs in some of the "rougher" areas of NYC since the 90's. There is no way that he could have done this without education on the public school systems. Andrews is clearly ignoring the back story in Immortal Weapons where it is shown Danny have a close relationship to another female pupil by the name of Jade. There we saw Danny experiencing first hand how tough the "systems" of the modern world could be. We also see he has a solid understanding of its cruel nature.

To go on further Pei isn't even Danny's first direct protege or did young Victor Alvarez aka Power Man get wiped away with Secret Wars?(rhetorical of course) This would have been another time where Danny would have gained understanding of a kid living in today's world. Like I said early Iron Fists is Andrews writing for Pei and now I will go further and saying that Andrews is writing for Andrews. ::SMH::

You bring up good points here Dragon, ones I didn't consider. I was thrown off with Andrews' description of Danny being selfish in the interview, especially after all of the years he's been a hero. Additionally, he has taught other kids in the past, like Power Man. Danny's appearance in the first issue of Iron Fists especially made me frustrated. I've a lingering suspicion that Kaare frequents this thread, so perhaps he understands this now.

However, I still stand by what I said about Iron Fists #2. That issue helped me get a better understanding of Danny's relationship with Pei. Reading how he wanted to see Pei avoid all of this fighting and concentrate on her studies, that shows me that he's not being selfish at all. He's very concerned about this person, he's just doing it in the wrong way. He may have experience with kids, but honestly there's still so much more to learn. I relate to that completely. As a teacher, I've taught many kids, but I'm still learning the best way to teach them and understand them. Finally, perhaps the relationship Danny has with Pei is different from that with Victor and Jade? Danny isn't just teaching Pei, he's also her caretaker. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Danny didn't have to take care of Victor. I recall from the miniseries that Victor had his own family (albeit Victor was experiencing a lot of personal drama there). Thus, it's understandable Danny doesn't have experience being the caretaker. Again, I could be wrong. I'll have to check my Iron Fist/Power Man issues.

Andrews should acknowledge more of Danny's past being a mentor, I'll admit that. However, I disagree that the series is tarnishing Danny. Iron Fists #2 showed me that Danny isn't being selfish, but genuinely cares. Thus, I'm sympathetic to him. Actually, I'm rooting for him now. He may have experience with others, but it's understandable that he has a lot more to learn. And from the previews in the back of the issue and from the Andrews interview, it looks as though he will learn that.

[The Whovian]

I like IF, but unlike you guys, I just can't get into this series. The art isn't to my liking and the story really isn't doing anything for me either.

[Tien Long]

Been looking all over for these pics, but just wanted to post the Iron Fist/Diamondback fight from Defenders. Seriously, this is just ridiculously beautiful:

[DragonsChi]

Good point Dragon. The fans here have wanted to see a match between these two for a while. I'd also like to see the differences between the two characters' fighting styles. Additionally, I predict a big twist at the end of issue when Shang reveals why he came Danny's rescue. Looking forward to what it could be.




You bring up good points here Dragon, ones I didn't consider. I was thrown off with Andrews' description of Danny being selfish in the interview, especially after all of the years he's been a hero. Additionally, he has taught other kids in the past, like Power Man. Danny's appearance in the first issue of Iron Fists especially made me frustrated. I've a lingering suspicion that Kaare frequents this thread, so perhaps he understands this now.

However, I still stand by what I said about Iron Fists #2. That issue helped me get a better understanding of Danny's relationship with Pei. Reading how he wanted to see Pei avoid all of this fighting and concentrate on her studies, that shows me that he's not being selfish at all. He's very concerned about this person, he's just doing it in the wrong way. He may have experience with kids, but honestly there's still so much more to learn. I relate to that completely. As a teacher, I've taught many kids, but I'm still learning the best way to teach them and understand them. Finally, perhaps the relationship Danny has with Pei is different from that with Victor and Jade? Danny isn't just teaching Pei, he's also her caretaker. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Danny didn't have to take care of Victor. I recall from the miniseries that Victor had his own family (albeit Victor was experiencing a lot of personal drama there). Thus, it's understandable Danny doesn't have experience being the caretaker. Again, I could be wrong. I'll have to check my Iron Fist/Power Man issues.

Andrews should acknowledge more of Danny's past being a mentor, I'll admit that. However, I disagree that the series is tarnishing Danny. Iron Fists #2 showed me that Danny isn't being selfish, but genuinely cares. Thus, I'm sympathetic to him. Actually, I'm rooting for him now. He may have experience with others, but it's understandable that he has a lot more to learn. And from the previews in the back of the issue and from the Andrews interview, it looks as though he will learn that.

I do not think Andrews is tarnishing Danny but he sure is downplaying him for Pei. It isn't equal footing.

And yeah this is Danny's first run as a caretaker but that doesn't excuess the somewhat drastic personality change. I feel its very out of character how he is dealing and treating Pei. Its also a drastic step for someone who has trained children with a constant care to become a guardian and then be as harsh and as you said catty. That has never been apart of Danny's personality.

Just my thoughts on the series so far. At this point I might just wait tell the title is fully released before I buy any more issues. Sometimes when you have the full story in hand you can appercaite it more. As of now I'm not really liking it due to the characterzation. Thank Goodness we have other options to enjoy Iron Fist.

Pac's right it is a good time to be a fan!

I like IF, but unlike you guys, I just can't get into this series. The art isn't to my liking and the story really isn't doing anything for me either.

Which one in particular? The core Iron Fist title by Brisson or the Iron Fists title by Andrews?

[Tien Long]

Edit: Misleading post.

[DragonsChi]

Been looking all over for these pics, but just wanted to post the Iron Fist/Diamondback fight from Defenders. Seriously, this is just ridiculously beautiful:

That fight was beatifuly done for sure! That punch is actually my background now. Just love looking at it!

[The Whovian]

Been looking all over for these pics, but just wanted to post the Iron Fist/Diamondback fight from Defenders. Seriously, this is just ridiculously beautiful:

Yep. That was the best part of the issue.

[Tien Long]

I do not think Andrews is tarnishing Danny but he sure is downplaying him for Pei. It isn't equal footing.

And yeah this is Danny's first run as a caretaker but that doesn't excuess the somewhat drastic personality change. I feel its very out of character how he is dealing and treating Pei. Its also a drastic step for someone who has trained children with a constant care to become a guardian and then be as harsh and as you said catty. That has never been apart of Danny's personality.

I wouldn't say Danny is being catty. Those C-Train girls, they were being catty towards Pei. Unfortunately, in the series, it appears that Danny doesn't know how these girls are treating Pei, and yeah that pissed me off the first issue. Danny may be aloof at times and currently distracted with this whole demon stuff, but he should make more time for Pei. He should have been more open to her problems. As you've pointed out, he has had experience before.

However, that one moment in issue #2 where Danny shows concern for Pei...............call me the optimist, I'll always choose that moment to show that Danny means well and that he genuinely cares. That's the Danny I know, that's the hero I know. And it shows me he hasn't been completely thrown under the bus in terms of character.

Just my thoughts on the series so far. At this point I might just wait tell the title is fully released before I buy any more issues. Sometimes when you have the full story in hand you can appercaite it more. As of now I'm not really liking it due to the characterzation. Thank Goodness we have other options to enjoy Iron Fist.

Pac's right it is a good time to be a fan!

No problems DragonsChi. We'll see how the Iron Fists story unfolds. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'm cool with admitting that. In any case, it's good that there are other Iron Fist options out there.

[Tien Long]

Yep. That was the best part of the issue.

Oh yeah. There's a lot of detail in these scenes. Love the slight dragon design with Danny's punch. Furthermore, Danny is employing REALLY effective martial arts techniques. He's using finger-joint locks, kicks to the knees, kneestrikes, headbutts, that's brutal, savage stuff. That's real Kung Fu.