Iron Fist: The Living Weapon Appreciation

[themortalfist]

You know I respect your reviews and opinion, PoO, so I hear where you're coming from. I had been willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but reading the Q&A really set me off, and Andrews just kept putting his foot in his mouth. It unfortunately colors my opinion if he can even deliver on the promise of his execution. I do think he's likely trying to do exactly what you're saying (Andrews brings up a valid point about Danny not having a "core characteristic" like Spider-Man), but I'm not buying into how he's doing it. For me it comes back around to how writers have handled Daredevil, a character almost known for the depths of his despair and depression, and suddenly a master writer like Waid comes in and takes the character in a new direction -- and new locale! -- without betraying an ounce of continuity. Waid's ego seems in check when writing Daredevil, while Andrews' seems to be putting himself above the character.

Here's the CBR post, if you haven't read it yet: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=53937

I'd love to hear what you think.

[taozen]

It seems that Andrews is decontructing Danny Rand, Iron Fist and K'un-L'un. When ever that happens to a character, it is oftern difficult to read if you are a fan of the character. Andrews has taken away Danny's adoptive father, the effectiveness of his power, and in essence his home. But the book reads as more of an Iron Fist else world. I do not mind Danny being angry but something would need to trigger such a character change. Not only is Danny angry but he is being impulsive and the character has never been an impulsive character.

Andrews' Iron Fist is not an Iron Fist that I have ever read. He has been written as having a flat affect or one could say depressed or having impulse control disorder. I see what story Andrews' is attempting to tell. How would one growing up in a city to become a living weapon effect that person's character? It seems he is saying that a person witnessesing such violence and trauma cannot come out unscathed. He cannot be the whimsical, aloof character we have seen under the pen of Matt Fraction.

My problems with the story is that he has fundamentally changed K'un L'un. I may be wrong but I do not remember K'un L'un ever being a city full of immortals. Since when does the Iron Fist become the Yu Ti? Why would the Prince of Orphans even suggest it? He is not of K'un L'un. The Iron Fist is the defender and protector of K'un L'un.

Another proplem is some of the other characterizations such as with the Thunderer? He has never had such a bombastic characterization. I have seen the old school martial arts movies Andrews based the charactization on but that has not been a Lei Kung I have read before.

I went back and re-read the issues and the book has a psychedelic feel. It seems as if Danny has been drugged, hallucinating and we are seeing things from his skewed perspective.

Now that Andrews has torn Danny's life, home, and body apart; the question will be how does he put him back together again? How does he resolve Danny's inpulsive anger? He has not even shown what triggered it yet. How will he have Danny save not only K'un L'un but himself? What will be Danny's core characteristic. I have always said that Hero's for Hire was too simple a path the defender of mystical city of K'un L'un. Andrew's wants to "define" Danny Rand, the Iron Fist. After the 12 issue run we will see if he is successful.

[Panic]

I'd like to talk about Iron Fist's history and the different changes creative teams have brought, but it's late where I am and I need to go to bed. Perhaps tomorrow if people are interested, we could talk about the history of the comic and the character?

[Dayle88]

I got about halfway through that Andrews' interview before I had to stop. I want to continue reading Living Weapon and he was coming across so pretentious that if I kept reading I probably wouldn't of been able to buy another issue

[Eduardo]

My problems with the story is that he has fundamentally changed K'un L'un. I may be wrong but I do not remember K'un L'un ever being a city full of immortals. Since when does the Iron Fist become the Yu Ti? Why would the Prince of Orphans even suggest it? He is not of K'un L'un. The Iron Fist is the defender and protector of K'un L'un.

The immortal bit has been there since the start of the character, way back in the Marvel Premiere issues.

As for Iron Fist becoming Yu Ti, this is an special situation, as this particular Iron Fist, Danny, is part of the ruling family. Remember that Wendell was adopted by Lord Tuan, which triggered the jealousy, etc of Nu-An, the previous Yu-Ti to the Thunderer.

Some of the old issues of Iron Fist even suggest that Nu-An was afraid of Wendell returning to rule over the city instead of him (IIRC, this is told in the issues featuring Master Khan).

[Panic]

In the first Iron Fist story (written by Roy Thomas, with incredible art by Gil Kane and Dick Giordano) we get our first look at K'un-Lun, and although at first glance it appears to be a mystical place, somewhat archaic in technology and high on ritual, the defeat of "The One" throws us our first curve - unexpectedly, Danny's opponent turns out to be an android, showing us that K'un-Lun's society is not as low-tech as it appears, and perhaps hinting that some of the other mysteries of the city may in fact be the work of advanced science rather than magic. Of course the creative team never continued the story, but I believe their successors brought in real magic pretty quickly; however, I suspect this wasn't what Roy Thomas had in mind at all. I think he probably intended that behind all the mystical trappings lay hidden science, though I have struggled to find any interviews with him where he goes into any real detail about what, if anything, he had envisioned for the series.

Similarly, when I re-read the story for the first time in years I was struck by the lack of mention of Danny having received his Iron Fist power by grappling with a dragon - a wingless dragon at that, unlike the winged dragon-brand on Iron Fist's chest; and this got me thinking that perhaps his "Iron Fist" power was not originally intended to be a super-power he won, but in fact the ultimate extension of his training - Danny was a normal guy, but one who had acquired through rigorous discipline the ability to focus his chi to its ultimate extent - and it was that level of mastery that gave him the title of Iron Fist. That would have made Danny a totally human hero who's supposed super-power was in fact an ability that anyone could achieve if they were given the knowledge and training that the advanced K'un Lun dwellers possessed... and if they had the will to achieve it.

I really, honestly think that first issue suggests that magic was never supposed to be part of Iron Fists mythology at all, and had Thomas and Kane continued with the book it would have been much more about achieving human potential through discipline and scientific knowledge, and a lot less real magic and dragons, and more science dressed-up to look like magic.

I'll admit now that I only read a few issues between this first story and Claremont's run, so I have a big gap in my reading between Marvel Premiere #15 and Iron Fist #1. I don't know if anyone has access to any interviews/essays by any of the early creative teams in Iron Fist's history, but if anyone does have a link or two to these type of things I'd be interested.

[Pav]

Say what? His "background as a student of human nature"? Um, my background as a student of canned Q&As is spotting when someone is trying to justify their relatively good ideas with the worst execution possible and then going to the press to drum up support for a series that looks to be canceled in 8 more issues.

I'm going to echo Geno here: "while I understand Danny has endured a lot of tragedy in his history, his angsty nature (not to mention his promiscuity) here is completely out of character. He has faced far worse in the past with his wit and integrity intact."

What's wrong with the creator using his philosophy on human nature to help create a stronger center to Danny Rand's character? As someone who greatly values logical philosophy in comics I think Andrews' characterization of Danny is more realistic considering the character's upbringing, and therefore the argument could be made that Andrews' characterization is not only NOT out of character but the first time in years he's been IN character. And yeah, I know how great Immortal Iron Fist is; I love it too, and I care about continuity in my comics. But Kaare's rationale for this different view of Danny makes perfect sense to me, and I think any reader with chops can see how Danny in this series is not so different from the Danny in past comics.

He's having trouble aligning his chi, y'know? I kinda know how that feels. A dude isn't going to be zen every moment of his life.

reading the Q&A really set me off, and Andrews just kept putting his foot in his mouth. It unfortunately colors my opinion if he can even deliver on the promise of his execution. I do think he's likely trying to do exactly what you're saying (Andrews brings up a valid point about Danny not having a "core characteristic" like Spider-Man), but I'm not buying into how he's doing it. For me it comes back around to how writers have handled Daredevil, a character almost known for the depths of his despair and depression, and suddenly a master writer like Waid comes in and takes the character in a new direction -- and new locale! -- without betraying an ounce of continuity.

The problem is that he's not messing up continuity. Sure, he may be looking at things from a different angle, but I have yet to see any real issues with continuity that can't easily be explained away. Perhaps, as you said, you won't be able to separate the art from the artist; it's certainly a hard thing to do sometimes for some people, and if you don't aesthetically enjoy the product there's not much to be done about that. But the issues you have - Danny's characterization; continuity - aren't necessarily there just because you think you see them.

It seems that Andrews is decontructing Danny Rand, Iron Fist and K'un-L'un. When ever that happens to a character, it is oftern difficult to read if you are a fan of the character. Andrews has taken away Danny's adoptive father, the effectiveness of his power, and in essence his home. But the book reads as more of an Iron Fist else world. I do not mind Danny being angry but something would need to trigger such a character change. Not only is Danny angry but he is being impulsive and the character has never been an impulsive character.

Andrews' Iron Fist is not an Iron Fist that I have ever read. He has been written as having a flat affect or one could say depressed or having impulse control disorder. I see what story Andrews' is attempting to tell. How would one growing up in a city to become a living weapon effect that person's character? It seems he is saying that a person witnessesing such violence and trauma cannot come out unscathed. He cannot be the whimsical, aloof character we have seen under the pen of Matt Fraction.

I went back and re-read the issues and the book has a psychedelic feel. It seems as if Danny has been drugged, hallucinating and we are seeing things from his skewed perspective.

Now that Andrews has torn Danny's life, home, and body apart; the question will be how does he put him back together again? How does he resolve Danny's inpulsive anger? He has not even shown what triggered it yet. How will he have Danny save not only K'un L'un but himself? What will be Danny's core characteristic. I have always said that Hero's for Hire was too simple a path the defender of mystical city of K'un L'un. Andrew's wants to "define" Danny Rand, the Iron Fist. After the 12 issue run we will see if he is successful

I agree with a lot of the above ideas. Kaare is doing, in my mind, something similar to what Grant Morrison did in his New X-Men run: he's using the established history of the character as puzzle pieces, and this series is trying to put the pieces together so that the readers can get a clear view of what Iron Fist is all about, as a character and as a comic book. But Danny "cannot be the whimsical, aloof character" he has been in the past? Yes, he can. Just like I might be in a great mood this week and in a lousy one next week, so too can three-dimensional characters have different composures. That's what I really don't like about those who see Danny in this series as "out of character," as though Danny can only act one way in every single issue and every single panel. I much prefer knowing that Iron Fist can both be a goofball zen warrior and a human with emotions that get out of hand and must be reeled in and dealt with.

The immortal bit has been there since the start of the character, way back in the Marvel Premiere issues.

As for Iron Fist becoming Yu Ti, this is an special situation, as this particular Iron Fist, Danny, is part of the ruling family. Remember that Wendell was adopted by Lord Tuan, which triggered the jealousy, etc of Nu-An, the previous Yu-Ti to the Thunderer.

Some of the old issues of Iron Fist even suggest that Nu-An was afraid of Wendell returning to rule over the city instead of him (IIRC, this is told in the issues featuring Master Khan).

This is what I'm talking about. There are answers for any of the questionable continuity "errors" that have been raised. And instead of trying to see how past comics support what Kaare is doing and/or just using old-fashioned in-your-head explanations, some people want to say this book is wrong or poorly executed; frankly, it seems to me that those people are trying to find reasons to justify disliking Kaare's work here, especially since the continuity of the character has always been a little wonky.

As taozen said, Kaare's Iron Fist is unlike so much of what we've read before. I guess some people won't be able to handle the change. But I read this and it's like Kaare is simply filling in more of the blanks in the story of Danny Rand, and I look forward to seeing where he will take and eventually leave the character.

-Pav, who wonders if Danny will become the Yu-Ti of K'un-Lun at the end of the run...

[Eduardo]

In the first Iron Fist story (written by Roy Thomas, with incredible art by Gil Kane and Dick Giordano) we get our first look at K'un-Lun, and although at first glance it appears to be a mystical place, somewhat archaic in technology and high on ritual, the defeat of "The One" throws us our first curve - unexpectedly, Danny's opponent turns out to be an android, showing us that K'un-Lun's society is not as low-tech as it appears, and perhaps hinting that some of the other mysteries of the city may in fact be the work of advanced science rather than magic. Of course the creative team never continued the story, but I believe their successors brought in real magic pretty quickly; however, I suspect this wasn't what Roy Thomas had in mind at all. I think he probably intended that behind all the mystical trappings lay hidden science, though I have struggled to find any interviews with him where he goes into any real detail about what, if anything, he had envisioned for the series.

Similarly, when I re-read the story for the first time in years I was struck by the lack of mention of Danny having received his Iron Fist power by grappling with a dragon - a wingless dragon at that, unlike the winged dragon-brand on Iron Fist's chest; and this got me thinking that perhaps his "Iron Fist" power was not originally intended to be a super-power he won, but in fact the ultimate extension of his training - Danny was a normal guy, but one who had acquired through rigorous discipline the ability to focus his chi to its ultimate extent - and it was that level of mastery that gave him the title of Iron Fist. That would have made Danny a totally human hero who's supposed super-power was in fact an ability that anyone could achieve if they were given the knowledge and training that the advanced K'un Lun dwellers possessed... and if they had the will to achieve it.

I really, honestly think that first issue suggests that magic was never supposed to be part of Iron Fists mythology at all, and had Thomas and Kane continued with the book it would have been much more about achieving human potential through discipline and scientific knowledge, and a lot less real magic and dragons, and more science dressed-up to look like magic.

I'll admit now that I only read a few issues between this first story and Claremont's run, so I have a big gap in my reading between Marvel Premiere #15 and Iron Fist #1. I don't know if anyone has access to any interviews/essays by any of the early creative teams in Iron Fist's history, but if anyone does have a link or two to these type of things I'd be interested.

Shu-Hu was always a weird part of the first issue. Personally, after IIF, I like to think it was something Orson Randall's dad built and left in K'un Lun.

The Iron Fist mythos have always been... a little confusing or contradictory in some aspects. For example:
- Wendell Rand was, as mentioned in the interview, sometimes referred as a native son of K'un-Lun, sometimes as an adopted one. There was never much clarity about where did he came from.
- By my count, Shou Lao has at least three different tales of its origins, one in an old Masters of Kung Fu Annual in which Shang Chi and Danny visit another city and meet Quan Star, a second in Power Man & Iron Fist during the Chiantang saga, and another one hinted during the Eight City arc, connecting the dragon to Changming.
- And the Chiantang story doesn't really fit well with Immortal Iron Fist.
- The numbers of times the city has been destroyed, and Yu-Ti's status concerning it.
- The relationship between the city and Master Khan.
- The legacy of Iron Fist is really a modern thing, from what I recall there was only one previous mention of other Iron Fists existing, in the two issue mini that also resurrected Davos for the first time.
- That mini also filled K'un Lun with monkeys that were supposed to be reincarnations of monks or something like that.
- Then there is the whole subject of the plant people, and Danny's half-sister.
- Which was brought back during Byrne's Namor run, which resurrected Iron Fist by creating a plant duplicate of Iron Fist. Byrne also cleared a bit of the Iron Fist cast, by killing off Master Khan & Ward Meachum.
- And the plant people reappeared in another Iron Fist miniseries, which also brought back Joy Meachum and some other weird aspects of Danny's past.
- During the Power Man & Iron Fist, we have the whole Red Iron Fist costume, supposedly a color of shame in K'un Lun, but in the Wolverine/IF miniseries, Yu-Ti is dressed in red. Oh, and the dragon kings actually turned into dragons in that story (?).
- And from that mini also, I think everyone decided to forgot about the whole "Little K'un Lun" left in our world (for the better).

[Eduardo]

There are other inconsistencies, as taozen has mentioned. Seeing the Prince of Orphans act as though he was a citizen of K'un-Lun made as little sense as Danny thinking he could actually hit him. The mythos of K'un-Lun is completely rewritten here. Furthermore, the legacy of the Iron Fist basically ended with the death of Shou Lao, the death of Lei Kung, and Danny (uncharacteristically) destroying the tree of immortality. But I digress, I have ranted far too much about this book elsewhere and don't have the energy to discuss the multitude of problems it has.

Just two things, that I commented in that particular issue's thread:

- Well, Aman was part of the K'un-Lun uprising and a vital part of getting the Thunderer as the new Yu-Ti... we haven't seen him back in his original city ever, and he clearly resents its leadership due to the lies about the portals connecting the cities to Earth. As far as we know, the only city that changed leadership was K'un-Lun, so it is not that hard to consider he would call it his new home after all that. At the end of the tournament most of the Immortal Weapons kind of went rogue from their respective cities.

- Shou Lao isn't dead...

[Panic]

Got bored...

[Trident]

Got bored...

Lol I love this! Great job !

[Panic]

Cheers!

10 char

[Ying Ko]

Iron Fist is one of my favorite characters since i was a kid, so partially inspired by this thread i finally decided to go back and re-read it all from the beginning. the cool thing is, there's a lot of stuff there that i've gotten over the years but never actually read before. i'm also comtemplating making a "from the beginning" thread to the Classic Comics forum, but i'm not sure i've got the time to do that properly...

anyway, been starting with those early issues of Deadly Hands of Kung Fu, and i have a question. those old black & white stories had some of the best Iron Fist art i've ever seen. some of it is apparently by Rudy Nebres, and some of it is by Ruby Nebres. i remember the name/names from old issues of Savage Sword of Conan as well as John Carter, Warlord of Mars. but are there actually 2 Nebreses, or is this like a constantly appearing typo? didn't find anything on it from google. were they like two brothers or something?

[Of Atlantis]

You know I respect your reviews and opinion, PoO, so I hear where you're coming from. I had been willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but reading the Q&A really set me off, and Andrews just kept putting his foot in his mouth. It unfortunately colors my opinion if he can even deliver on the promise of his execution. I do think he's likely trying to do exactly what you're saying (Andrews brings up a valid point about Danny not having a "core characteristic" like Spider-Man), but I'm not buying into how he's doing it. For me it comes back around to how writers have handled Daredevil, a character almost known for the depths of his despair and depression, and suddenly a master writer like Waid comes in and takes the character in a new direction -- and new locale! -- without betraying an ounce of continuity. Waid's ego seems in check when writing Daredevil, while Andrews' seems to be putting himself above the character.

Here's the CBR post, if you haven't read it yet: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=53937

I'd love to hear what you think.

Sorry for the long delay in my response.

There are things I liked and disliked about the interview. For one, he doesn't shy away from the fact that a lot of Iron Fist's continuity doesn't add up. It sounds slightly like an excuse for him to take creative liberties if I'm being honest, which is odd because for the most part, his continuity has lined up aside from the additions he's made. He does however make a good point that depending on the writer, we have gotten some very different Iron Fists over the years. He also mentions the fact how he's picking and choosing which continuities to go with, which I kind of understand, but I personally prefer writers to stick with the most recent continuity to avoid inconsistencies. it's a bit like how Fraction decided to portray Prince of Orphans in Defenders radically different than the Prince of Orphans he established during Immortal iron Fist, so I understand where some posters are coming from.

In regards to Davos becoming a villain again, I liked his justification for it and agree with him. Personally I liked him as an antagonist anyways and I've grown tired of the reformed villains cliche. However, this does go back to keeping up with recent continuity which I usually prefer. Though I feel his explanation is spot on, I would prefer it touched upon within the story because it did seem a bit sudden and out of character in regards to his development in Immortal Iron Fist. Maybe it'll be touched on later in a later issue. I've been itching for a rematch between Iron Fist and Davos. And could you imagine the intensity of that? Given Danny's current state?

His explanation about Brenda was also something I thought he explained well. We are starting to discover that she's more than who she was in the first issue. And I think including her was a good plot tool in order to delve deeper into Danny's mental state.

I'm excited for the "Redemption" arc he has planned. It's exactly was I referred to earlier in regards to breaking the character down in order to pull him up again. I'm really looking forward to it and I think there's a good chance it may win some of you over.

As for his 12 issue plan. I'm just glad he knows where he's headed. I didn't think this book would last more than 16 issues given the current state of Marvel's creative focus. If 12 issues of well planned story is what we get, I'm okay with that.

And finally, I absolutely love the fact he's deciding to focus on Iron Fist and not bring guest appearances in or tie into events. It's about time a writer stopped relying on cameos and gimmicks like that. Even if they do boost sales, it sacrifices the integrity of the story.

This is what I'm talking about. There are answers for any of the questionable continuity "errors" that have been raised. And instead of trying to see how past comics support what Kaare is doing and/or just using old-fashioned in-your-head explanations, some people want to say this book is wrong or poorly executed; frankly, it seems to me that those people are trying to find reasons to justify disliking Kaare's work here, especially since the continuity of the character has always been a little wonky.

Questioning the continuity is justified I think. Andrews made it clear he's taking pieces of continuity he wants to use rather than just basing it off the most recently established status quo, which is fine, but it can potentially seem inconsistent.

- Well, Aman was part of the K'un-Lun uprising and a vital part of getting the Thunderer as the new Yu-Ti... we haven't seen him back in his original city ever, and he clearly resents its leadership due to the lies about the portals connecting the cities to Earth. As far as we know, the only city that changed leadership was K'un-Lun, so it is not that hard to consider he would call it his new home after all that. At the end of the tournament most of the Immortal Weapons kind of went rogue from their respective cities.

I assume he's investigating the situation in K'un L'un because he believes there's potentially a threat and possible disruption of balance. He's a foreign aid of sorts? I'm interested to see where they go with the supporting characters.

[kacangpool]

kaare just posted this on fb:

Hey all, have been getting some questions about Iron Fist not appearing in October solicits. I was unaware of this myself until yesterday, but Marvel decided to take a month off in between the two arcs "Rage" (1-6) and "Redemption" (7-12) and release the first trade.

All is well-- all is on point. We are good to go. The book is safe and in fact, we were originally only slated for a 10 issue season but have expanded to 12.

Thanks so much for all of your support!