Women Gamers Encourage Empowerment, Positivity in a Post-GamerGate World

[Pinsir]

Well yeah. A gamer is criticizing from experience, they have played the games so know what they are talking about. An outsider has no experience and is making a reactionary criticism based on what they have heard about the game or what they have been told about it. So when Anita Sarkeesian calls Hitman Absolution sexist by saying players "are MEANT to derive PERVERSE PLEASURE from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters. It's a rush streaming the carefully concocted MIX OF SEXUAL AROUSAL connected to the act of controlling and punishing representations of female sexuality" and "the player CANNOT HELP but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon" its obvious to people who have played the game that she doesn't know what shes talking about.

That video was certainly her weakest and I have no problem saying that or agreeing with your points on it. However this is not the first argument I had with someone who is critical of Anita who has mentioned that Hitman video. It is the 'low hanging fruit' of Anita criticism so to speak. What about her basic points? Should there be more female playable characters? Or at least can women be 'daimselled' less often? My guess is that most GGers would agree, but because these criticisms come from an outsider she was attacked.

Anita claims to just want to start a discussion about sexism in the gaming industry/community but disables comments on her videos. That's not a discussion that's a sermon from a dictator where disagreement is forbidden and labeled an attack on Anita and therefore an attack on all women in gaming. It even says on her website "remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it's more problematic or pernicious aspects." apparently this doesn't apply to her videos though.

Just because she disables comments on her videos does not mean she is a hypocrite. Youtube has never been a good place for discussion because it is difficult to moderate. It is better now, but it is still pretty bad. Even 4chan has mods that regulate content.

[Nyssane]

Remember to keep the personal remarks and over-the-top snark out of the thread, people.

Anita claims to just want to start a discussion about sexism in the gaming industry/community but disables comments on her videos. That's not a discussion that's a sermon from a dictator where disagreement is forbidden and labeled an attack on Anita and therefore an attack on all women in gaming. It even says on her website "remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it's more problematic or pernicious aspects." apparently this doesn't apply to her videos though.

Anita has disabled comments on her videos because of the countless trollish comments. There were likely several people who had valid critical counterpoints to her videos, but they were flooded out by the rape and death threats. Twitter might be a good avenue for one to state his or her criticisms of Anita's work in a respectful manner.

That said, I'm a huge fan of Anita Sarkeesian. She's pointing out flaws that video games have had for a while and continues to do so despite all the negativity and threats she receives. A true hero in my book. Do I always agree with everything she says in her videos? No. But she's getting us talking about female representation in video games and will hopefully pioneer some changes.

[Teek]

I would just like to contribute, for a moment, that the accusation that Zoe Quinn slept her way to good reviews...

...is not the accusation. The accusation is that Nathan Grayson wrote this story, used Zoe Quinn as a primary source in it, and did not disclose their relationship, which Grayson claims began shortly after.

That was the start and once the thread got pulled people discovered, among other things...
The Escapist's Carly Smith writing a story that borders on liable without bothering with basic fact checking.
Polygon's Ben Kuchera writing on the same subject while contributing to the subject's Patreon. And he's far from the only person in the games media to do so.
Kotaku's Patricia Hernandez writing about her roommate's game without disclosure.

And in response to accusations that games media and indy developers have become far too cozy with each other, Ars Technica's Kyle Orland went to a secret games journalism mailing list and pressured his competitors (many of which apparently forgetting that they are competitors) into shutting down the discussion. If memory serves, Orland also threw around the idea of sending Zoe Quinn a gift basket, which, thankfully, at least a few of the other journalists on the mailing list recognized as way over the line.

[toddx77]

Just because she disables comments on her videos does not mean she is a hypocrite. Youtube has never been a good place for discussion because it is difficult to moderate. It is better now, but it is still pretty bad. Even 4chan has mods that regulate content.

She never even addresses the criticism towards her that proves she is a liar and she flat out blocks people on twitter for asking her to prove something. One guy simply asked for a refund because she hadn't delivered on her promise from her kickstarter and she blocked him. I know she got harassing comments,but there some evidence that suggests she sent the threats herself, but regardless someone who keeps playing the victim card when there is flat out evidence against them that proves they are a liar needs to at least address it. If not on youtube then somewhere. I think she could turn her comments on and be fine. If all the trolling comments really were from her like some evidence points to then she should be fine. On the abc news video about 98% of the comments are legit criticisms against her and very few rape or death threats are posted. Same with pro gamer gate videos in general. Most comments are people proving how she is wrong and not just threatening to rape or kill her like she wants people to believe.

That said, I'm a huge fan of Anita Sarkeesian. She's pointing out flaws that video games have had for a while and continues to do so despite all the negativity and threats she receives. A true hero in my book. Do I always agree with everything she says in her videos? No. But she's getting us talking about female representation in video games and will hopefully pioneer some changes.

So you are ok with her flat out telling lies or distorting facts about Watchdogs, Hitman, Grand Theft Auto V, Dying Light, Dinosaur Planet,and Bayonetta?

[Iron Fist]

I'm rather apathetic to both sides at this point, both behaved rather appallingly. And I seem to be the minority that feel this was something that was meant to be about ethics in journalism and got hijacked to be about sexism and then the radically misinformed Anita Sarkeesian got informed and downhill we go at warp speed.

[Nyssane]

She never even addresses the criticism towards her that proves she is a liar and she flat out blocks people on twitter for asking her to prove something. One guy simply asked for a refund because she hadn't delivered on her promise from her kickstarter and she blocked him. I know she got harassing comments,but there some evidence that suggests she sent the threats herself, but regardless someone who keeps playing the victim card when there is flat out evidence against them that proves they are a liar needs to at least address it. If not on youtube then somewhere. I think she could turn her comments on and be fine. If all the trolling comments really were from her like some evidence points to then she should be fine. On the abc news video about 98% of the comments are legit criticisms against her and very few rape or death threats are posted. Same with pro gamer gate videos in general. Most comments are people proving how she is wrong and not just threatening to rape or kill her like she wants people to believe.

The fact that there are any at all is disgusting and proves why she shouldn't allow comments on her videos. There are other avenues to critique her in rational and respectful ways.

So you are ok with her flat out telling lies or distorting facts about Watchdogs, Hitman, Grand Theft Auto V, Dying Light, Dinosaur Planet,and Bayonetta?

And what lies exactly is she telling?

Watch Dogs featuring a majority of female characters as victims is problematic. The fact that strippers are constantly used in games like Hitman and GTA for the straight male gamer to oggle or beat to death is problematic. I'm a Bayonetta fan but I'll admit that her over-the-top sexuality can be seen as sexist (what male character is there whose sexuality is as glorified?). She even says in every one of her videos that it's possible to enjoy these games while still being critical of them.

[Iron Fist]

I'm a Bayonetta fan but I'll admit that her over-the-top sexuality can be seen as sexist (what male character is there whose sexuality is as glorified?). She even says in every one of her videos that it's possible to enjoy these games while still being critical of them.

This is one of her points that I never understood, why is any female who uses her sexuality openly seen to be sexist? Bayonetta was designed by a woman. People don't look at sexually open women on shows like Sex And The City and scream sexism.

I just never understood this complaint about Bayonetta, are they using sexuality to sell the game yes, but is it sexist or detrimental to the character when openly embraces it? I don't see how. I remember when people tried using the same argument against Lara Croft and it never really found any traction. =/

[Nyssane]

This is one of her points that I never understood, why is any female who uses her sexuality openly seen to be sexist? Bayonetta was designed by a woman. People don't look at sexually open women on shows like Sex And The City and scream sexism.

I just never understood this complaint about Bayonetta, are they using sexuality to sell the game yes, but is it sexist or detrimental to the character when openly embraces it? I don't see how. I remember when people tried using the same argument against Lara Croft and it never really found any traction. =/

Like I said, I'm a fan of Bayonetta. Not everybody gets the tongue-in-cheek nature of the series. All the women I know and have talked to about Bayonetta have literally no interest in it because of the oversexualization. But I would like to see more games starring women whose sexualities aren't place at the forefront.

[Pinsir]

She never even addresses the criticism towards her that proves she is a liar and she flat out blocks people on twitter for asking her to prove something. One guy simply asked for a refund because she hadn't delivered on her promise from her kickstarter and she blocked him. I know she got harassing comments,but there some evidence that suggests she sent the threats herself, but regardless someone who keeps playing the victim card when there is flat out evidence against them that proves they are a liar needs to at least address it. If not on youtube then somewhere. I think she could turn her comments on and be fine. If all the trolling comments really were from her like some evidence points to then she should be fine. On the abc news video about 98% of the comments are legit criticisms against her and very few rape or death threats are posted. Same with pro gamer gate videos in general. Most comments are people proving how she is wrong and not just threatening to rape or kill her like she wants people to believe.

That doesn't prove she is a liar, if legitimate criticism is caught in a deluge of personal attacks it seems unlikely she ever looks at comments for her work. In fact, because she has received so much unjustified flack it probably only reinforces that her perspective is correct.

So you are ok with her flat out telling lies or distorting facts about Watchdogs, Hitman, Grand Theft Auto V, Dying Light, Dinosaur Planet,and Bayonetta?

It is difficult to prove someone is lying. You have to have evidence that she knew before she made those statements that they were incorrect. I think she thinks that by allowing such scenes at all, even if they are frowned upon by the game itself, is contributing to 'sexism.' You can disagree and like I said that video was the weakest in the series, but that doesn't mean she was lying. However you still have not acknowledged whether you agree or disagree with her basic premise; should female characters gain an expanded role in video games?

[Animeality]

After a harrowing 2014, five female pros explained why it's still awesome to be a woman in the gaming industry.[/I]

Call me a bumpkin. I've never cared that much about what goes on in the "industry" itself, or the "journalism" side of gaming. I know the names of a few game directors and teams behind the games I like. A couple of times I've balked when a team I liked got laid off or closed down, due to sales or whatever, but I only occasionally read about their design philosophies and opinions on gaming, gamers, etc etc when my monthly Game Informer shows up. In fact it used to annoy me how "deep" some of these articles got. Some were downright excessive. I'm sorry but, Mortal Kombat and Call of Duty aren't "deep" games, I'm not interested in a 7-page analysis of how pressing the X button defines an entire generation of video games, I want information on newer games and their features.

As such, I didn't gain anything from reading this article. "We're five women having a good time in the gaming industry, even in this post-GG world." As previously said, "death threats/online harassment" are still very much a thing, so nothing's been accomplished other than some slight awareness that's already being disparaged in favor of forgetting the whole affair. Maybe people are more aware of this harassment, I mean, I came here and reluctantly read through several opinions on "gamer gate", but it's not gone.

Okay, so like any developer or moderately successful game creator, they've been harassed, but they've found reasons to stay in the industry and keep making money. Business as usual. Can't we devote this social energy toward nagging Valve to make Half-Life 3, or to revive interest in The Last Guardian, or to kickstart Skullgirls 2?

What else is said in this article:

We should bring more diversity to the industry? In the workplace, fine - of the two comments related to that in the article, they've only experienced harassment online, "all of the guys in the industry/qorkplace are great and supportive." In the games? Okay, you've grabbed me, how are we going to do that? Will we make visual novels with LGBT routes, or a first-person shooter with a homosexual hero? Will there be a Streets of Rage remake where Billy's girlfriend teams up with her sister to rescue him, or a sequel to Super Princess Peach where she doesn't use PMS as a weapon? Maybe more black/Hispanic/Asian representation in fighting games, fewer stereotypes like Nightwolf and Balrog. That's not the topic here, we need to get around to it, don't know how, but it's fun to say we need to do it. Have any "progressive/diverse" games cropped up since then, indie or otherwise?

What is this article about, all I'm getting are "feel good" vibes because "Sexism hasn't won today!" A long series of reassurances and personal hopes, people going on and on about how "good" their relationships within the industry are, how much they enjoy their work, "I hope I inspire people." You want to know who inspires me? Hideo Kojima, who took his crappy little idea that nobody liked and made it into a top-selling franchise years later, inventing and reinventing genres, experimenting. That's new, that's innovation in the industry. That's relevant to me.

I really... just didn't gain anything from this article. I want game news, not "gamer" news. That's my fault in a sense, but this whole article and the discussion following it feels pointless. I really wish we hadn't come up with "gamergate", at least then I could divorce myself from it, and not bat an eye because the word "game" is involved. The only games I've even seen referenced in this debacle are Depression Quest and Hitman Absolution, the latter from this thread.

Every time I see the phrase "gamergate", I tell myself, "Okay, today's the day you're going to sit down and research this and form a solid opinion on it, damn it, you're a gamer and you should be aware of what's going on around you!" Five minutes later it always, always turns into a massive headache and I tell myself that this has almost nothing to do with video games, other than the profession of a person involved. This tumor of harassment, online attacks, and ethical conflict could've formed in any media.

[Xero Kaiser]

That doesn't prove she is a liar, if legitimate criticism is caught in a deluge of personal attacks it seems unlikely she ever looks at comments for her work. In fact, because she has received so much unjustified flack it probably only reinforces that her perspective is correct.

If she receives a lot of flack for not knowing what she's talking about, how is it unjustified?

[Joker]

I don't play many games anymore, but I do play Grand Theft Auto. I like the open world, and I think they do that better than anyone. I've been a fan since III.

I've also read Anita's comments on the game, and she's not incorrect. I don't know what lies she's apparently telling about it, or what facts she's distorting, because I've played them all and she is correct in her assessment. I'm not sure why one of the three protagonists in V couldn't have been a woman. We've had two black men, but no women. Women are side characters. Wives, girlfriends, they're annoying, insane, or simply sex objects. I think IV had a girlfriend who wasn't a piece of shit, but in the end you have to decide if she or your cousin lives. I'm sure she died more often than not.

Take Telltale's The Walking Dead as a counter. You play as a black man and a black girl. (or half black/half asian? I'm not sure. I think the fact that I'm not actually sure says something about the game, and the character development of the game, because her race doesn't even matter.) It's a pretty great game. It's got a solid range of characters, across race and both genders. Everyone's equal opportunity piece of shit, or solid human being. I think that game really nails down the equality that people like Anita are asking for in games. And the game doesn't suffer for any of those choices. In fact, it's better for them.

I'd prefer the future of games to take that route moving forward. I love GTA, but it could certainly take a deeper look at how it's representing certain aspects, and that maybe it's satire isn't always understood by, or interesting to, a large percentage of it's audience.

[Pinsir]

If she receives a lot of flack for not knowing what she's talking about, how is it unjustified?

She is not factually incorrect though, you can do what she showed in those games. The response by critics is that the game penalizes such behavior, but Ms. Sarkessian doesn't really care about that. To her, so long as you can do that in a video game, it is a problem. She doesn't outright say this, but I think it is the axiom she is working with. I think she should obviously clarify her opinion, but she is not lying nor has she demonstrated significant ignorance on the subject.

Again, I will repeat myself, but I think the Hitman video garners so much attention from critics because it has problems or at least clarity. However one video is not representative of a persons body of work. I feel because the Hitman video has so many problems you and others are funneling all your antagonism for her through this niche. So you agree or disagree with her basic premise that women should be treated better as characters in video games? My guess is most GGers would agree (though now they might not admit it).

[Michael P]

So you agree or disagree with her basic premise that women should be treated better as characters in video games? My guess is most GGers would agree (though now they might not admit it).

Your guess flies in the face of both evidence and reason.

[Pinsir]

Your guess flies in the face of both evidence and reason.

Not really, they have no problem with games like Metroid or Baynetta and their icon Vivian is from a game they helped create and sponsor. It just goes back to that feeling gamers have where when their hobby is criticized by an outsider many react unreasonably.