Superman/Wonder Woman - TRUTH?

[Vanguard-01]

johns still wroter her brute on trinity war, when smww was still together.

They're still together now.

There has been no breakup. Superman and Diana are still dating in Justice League. Johns just isn't wasting page space showing the two of them kissing every single issue.

The only thing that has changed is Johns just woke up one morning and decided to start writing Diana the way he should've been writing her from Day One.

she doesn't care that people will get hurt, she just want to fight the villain. good luck for the person in peril. This happened twice, it's a really bad showing.
Her methods were completely wrong, fight the big guy and let people get hurt? it's not what a hero does.
saving people is a mere coiicidence. even moonknight saves people with more will than WW

Stopping the villain prevents the villain from hurting anyone else. Once the villain is defeated, THEN she can focus on helping the people he has already hurt.

That's the DEFINITION of caring about people in trouble. Stopping the thing that's hurting them so that you can help them recover. If you focus on saving every person in danger, then while you're doing that, the villain is moving on and hurting more people.

That's not "coincidence." That's called a "plan." A plan with "Help People" written all over it.

sure, some lip service. that was so forced, but the rest of his run ww was bland and violent

Nope.

No needless violence at all, other than the attack on the naval ship, and even that was a measured response. She could've sunk the ship if she wanted to. Instead, she just attacked it's guns.

Every other time, Diana was in control and did nothing that was unnecessarily violent. She even tried to calm down Superdoom, you may recall.

[brettc1]

He took a sword to the chest and he stopped. Then he charged her again. Then Superman stuck his nose into Diana's fight. I don't see a shred of evidence that Diana was in any danger of being killed in that fight.

Okay, if you don't think Doomsday is any threat at all to Wonder Woman in a fight then we clearly have no common ground on which to discuss that.

She fights Doomsday and almost dies.......while she's in a weaker state and isn't prepared to fight him. She fights him a second time when she's more powerful and ready for him, and suddenly she handles him just fine.

Ummm..how is she more powerful the second time? Was she holding back the first time because Doomsday had only ripped in half two people she didn't like? Did she take a proton energy pill the second time, giving her the strenght of 20 atom bombs for a period of 20 seconds? Was she tired after all that gardening with Superman?

And Superman tore Doomsday in half with his bare hands after a long, brutal fight that left Superman a bloody mess. Please, let's not make it sound like Superman just walked up to Doomsday and ripped him apart like it was nothing.

True, that would be Wonder Woman, because Doomsday has no chance of killing her.

She had Faora helpless. She could've killed or incapacitated her with ease. And if Superman hadn't been there to serve as a convenient hostage for Zod, Diana probably could've handled them both. Neither Zod nor Faora landed a single significant hit on Diana in that entire fight. It was pretty obvious Diana had them outclassed in every way.

That must be why she decided she needed the anti-Doomsday armor for the second fight, right?

Faora is, in fact, not helpless, because she and Diana are still fighting. Faora is hurt, but hurt is not helpless.

We didn't see Diana beating up Mongul. We did, however, see Mongul, on his knees and obeying Diana's every command. It's a win. End of story.

Did she knock him out? Trick him? Flash him to distract him? Without any evidence on the page it's a hollow victory.

Nope.

I've literally never heard a Superman fan try to put forward that theory. Literally. Not once.

If Zatanna's stupid enough to try to cast a spell on him while she's a mere ten feet away from him, however? Sure. That's the advantage of superspeed.

And Superman has ALWAYS enjoyed an advantage over sun-based enemies. He literally feeds on their power source. That's been Superman 101 for decades.

I have - but if you don't believe me, go to the Superman board right now and post a thread about how easily Zatanna could own Superman.

And yet, strangely enough, Superman has beaten magical enemies on many occasions. So, yeah, beating him with magic is still an accomplishment because plenty of other magical enemies have tried to beat him and failed.

A lot of have tried and succeeded too. Rules change in a team book.

Except the one about "only Superman can beat Doomsday". That seems unbreakable.

[Lax]

Two - her attack on the naval vessel in issue one as a perpetuation of violence.

That was an intimidation tactic. They stopped trying to kill her after that.

Three - why are we letting all these people who can catch colds in the rain have these cabs that we don't need?

She originally wanted to fly, Superman wanted to walk, she agreed to do what he wanted. Then he decided to give up 4 of their taxis with no signs of stopping, she took matters into her own hands.

Four - I don't care why you are doing what you are doing, I'm just let going to let the hate flow and bash your head in - we can worry about the details later.

She already tried using the Lasso and it failed to provide any useful information.

That was before Magog started trying to kill them.

[Vanguard-01]

Okay, if you don't think Doomsday is any threat at all to Wonder Woman in a fight then we clearly have no common ground on which to discuss that.

Okay, if you're going to twist what I say, then I think you're quite right. I didn't say Doomsday was no threat to Diana. I said she was doing fine against him in the second battle, and that I saw no reason to believe that she was going to die in that fight.

But, I'm done dancing this dance with you. I believe Diana is awesome and that her accomplishments should be celebrated. You seem determined to believe that Diana isn't awesome and that her accomplishments should be crapped upon at every turn. I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm done trying to convince you otherwise.

[Lax]

Diana lost one fight to Doomsday. To DOOMSDAY. One of the most powerful villains the DCU has to offer. There is NEVER any shame in a character losing to Doomsday.

Furthermore? Diana was weaker in that fight. That fight happened before her God of War upgrade. The next time Diana fought Doomsday? She stopped him dead in his tracks, wounded him, and walked away without a scratch on her.

His poison/death field was slowly damaging her over time.

Goddess of War as an upgrade? It doesn't seem to make her stronger or faster or more durable or more skilled. It doesn't seem to give her anything she didn't already have aside from telepathy with soldiers as far as I can see.

Doomsday is the one who got upgraded, he got bigger, stronger, and had a death field. The armor Hephaestus forged for both Superman and Wonder Woman was originally designed for that weaker version of Doomsday.

She fought the weaker version of Doomsday during the initial encounter, then she preformed better against the stronger version during their rematch.

1.) Superman DID fight back against Zod and Faora. He just fought back very poorly because he was an unskilled fighter going up against two soldiers who were fighting as a team. Superman was losing that fight because HE wasn't good enough. Then Diana showed up and slapped around two military-trained Kryptonians like they owed her money. Seems like Diana was more than good enough against two people who were good enough to make Superman look like a wuss.

They may have won if Superman had followed Wonder Woman's instructions and taken Faora out instead of the "I won't hurt you." route.

It particularly glaring because he asked her for guidance earlier in the fight.

2.) You're talking about the nuclear blast? Superman saved Diana in that incident. She was ambushed by ghost soldiers and he had to rush her to Hessia for treatment.

Worth noting that he was able to save her because she blew a whole in the clouds for sunlight to get through.

3.) Magog doesn't "sneak." He stabbed Superman in the back because Superman wasn't paying attention to the enemy they were fighting. Diana, however, did much better against Magog than Superman did because she's a better fighter than he is.

I'd say it was a sneak attack.

Superman was noted as being weaker against magic, which is why Wonder Woman recovered on her own while Superman needed assistance.

[Vanguard-01]

His poison/death field was slowly damaging her over time.

And she was resisting it and continuing to fight.

Goddess of War as an upgrade? It doesn't seem to make her stronger or faster or more durable or more skilled. It doesn't seem to give her anything she didn't already have aside from telepathy with soldiers as far as I can see.

First fight against Doomsday without the God of War upgrade? Diana loses in seconds.

Second fight against Doomsday WITH the God of War upgrade? Suddenly, she's hurting him and standing her ground against him.

Looks like it increased her power to me.

Doomsday is the one who got upgraded, he got bigger, stronger, and had a death field. The armor Hephaestus forged for both Superman and Wonder Woman was originally designed for that weaker version of Doomsday.

And Diana was able to take Doomsday on with no special enhancements whatsoever. So she took on a bigger, stronger, death-field-wielding Doomsday and didn't die instantaneously.

Upgrade. Yet again.

She fought the weaker version of Doomsday during the initial encounter, then she preformed better against the stronger version during their rematch.

Thus reinforcing the idea that becoming God of War upgraded her powers. Thanks for agreeing with me.

I'd say it was a sneak attack.

Superman was noted as being weaker against magic, which is why Wonder Woman recovered on her own while Superman needed assistance.

It wasn't a sneak attack. Superman knew they were fighting Magog, at that point. He took his eyes off the ball and he paid for it.

Magog didn't use stealth to attack Superman. He used Superman's lack of situational awareness in combat to his advantage.

[Lax]

And she was resisting it and continuing to fight.

Right, but she didn't walk away without a scratch.

First fight against Doomsday without the God of War upgrade? Diana loses in seconds.

Second fight against Doomsday WITH the God of War upgrade? Suddenly, she's hurting him and standing her ground against him.

Looks like it increased her power to me.

The problem is that Superman preformed better during his rematch as well. It was stated that Doomsday didn't even want to face Superman until he got more powerful which flies in the face of him attacking Superman with no issue during their first meeting. Superman being so worried he needed a pep talk from Wondy makes no sense either.

Unless all three of them received a power up for the rematch something is off.

And Diana was able to take Doomsday on with no special enhancements whatsoever. So she took on a bigger, stronger, death-field-wielding Doomsday and didn't die instantaneously.

Upgrade. Yet again.

In turn Superman outright killed the bigger, stronger, death-field Doomsday without the enchanted armor they both thought they'd need for a weaker version of Doomsday.

How do you account for this?

Thus reinforcing the idea that becoming God of War upgraded her powers. Thanks for agreeing with me.

I agree she preformed better during the rematch, I don't agree that it had anything to do with her becoming the Goddess of War.

If the first fight was legit, then Doomsday should have killed them both the second time around.

If the second fight was legit, then Superman & Wonder Woman worrying about the weaker version of Doomsday to the degree that they did makes no sense.

I'm inclined to believe the second fight was legitimate making the first fight PIS to build up Doomsday as a threat. Especially when combined with the lack of super-speed, Lasso, and tactics in both of the fights.

It wasn't a sneak attack. Superman knew they were fighting Magog, at that point. He took his eyes off the ball and he paid for it.

Magog didn't use stealth to attack Superman. He used Superman's lack of situational awareness in combat to his advantage.

Check out the tail end of Superman/Wonder Woman #14.

They were trying to help Wonderstar and then Superman was shanked from behind by a spear that appeared from a magical portal. Magic was stated as the reason Magog was able to hurt him so easily and why Superman hadn't recovered as he normally would. (Wondy had to pull him out of the river)

There was only one spear, it was going to be either Superman or Wonder Woman and Magog chose Superman.

[Blacksun]

They're still together now.

There has been no breakup. Superman and Diana are still dating in Justice League. Johns just isn't wasting page space showing the two of them kissing every single issue.

The only thing that has changed is Johns just woke up one morning and decided to start writing Diana the way he should've been writing her from Day One.

he doesn't need to write them kissing to be a couple, but he is not writing them as a couple. he ignored it on his superman run. he had wonder woman flirting with captain cold. clearly johns got tired of it...maybe not I didn't read #40 yet

Stopping the villain prevents the villain from hurting anyone else. Once the villain is defeated, THEN she can focus on helping the people he has already hurt.

That's the DEFINITION of caring about people in trouble. Stopping the thing that's hurting them so that you can help them recover. If you focus on saving every person in danger, then while you're doing that, the villain is moving on and hurting more people.

That's not "coincidence." That's called a "plan." A plan with "Help People" written all over it.

she doesn't care about people caught in the middle of the fight. she and superman together could easily throw magog far away from the bridge, if she had a plan. All she does is punching and people have to run away on their own.
she is much more into fighting than saving people, that is clear. she wants the fight, save people is just a consequence to her

Nope.

No needless violence at all, other than the attack on the naval ship, and even that was a measured response. She could've sunk the ship if she wanted to. Instead, she just attacked it's guns.

Every other time, Diana was in control and did nothing that was unnecessarily violent. She even tried to calm down Superdoom, you may recall.

she put a hot sword into Faora face, said that she will kill Zod. she threw a tantrum in that naval ship, unecessary violence

[Sacred Knight]

she doesn't care about people caught in the middle of the fight. she and superman together could easily throw magog far away from the bridge, if she had a plan. All she does is punching and people have to run away on their own.
she is much more into fighting than saving people, that is clear. she wants the fight, save people is just a consequence to her

You're just flat out wrong, and have been shown as such more than once by different posters. Asserting this incorrect analysis doesn't make it anymore viable. Who cares if they could have done something else? In any situation, you can probably think of a bunch of different ways they could have gone about it. That's not the point. The point is what they did and the reason given for why they did what they did. And Wonder Woman made her intentions more than clear in the text. She wanted Superman to support the bridge to protect the people, while she stopped Magog to protect them on that front. Its incredibly simple. The assertion she doesn't care is born from absolutely nothing on the printed page.

[Lax]

he had wonder woman flirting with captain cold.

He may have flirted a bit with her, but when was she flirting with him?

[Sacred Knight]

She didn't. She's just trying to perpetuate the idea that Johns doesn't like the relationship anymore. Which is an act of futility because no one can get inside the man's head, and even if he is tired of it, so what? Its grown beyond him, if it ever was just his idea in the first place, which even that I doubt.

[brettc1]

That was an intimidation tactic. They stopped trying to kill her after that.

No, they stopped attacking her because Doomsday showed up.


.

She originally wanted to fly, Superman wanted to walk, she agreed to do what he wanted. Then he decided to give up 4 of their taxis with no signs of stopping, she took matters into her own hands.

Fair point.

She already tried using the Lasso and it failed to provide any useful information.

That was before Magog started trying to kill them.

Dudding the lasso to excuse WWs violent behaviour does not earn credit in my eyes. Even so, the guy clearly knows more after the attack than before.

[Vanguard-01]

he doesn't need to write them kissing to be a couple, but he is not writing them as a couple. he ignored it on his superman run. he had wonder woman flirting with captain cold. clearly johns got tired of it...maybe not I didn't read #40 yet

He's not writing them acting like lovers because they're "on the job." I wouldn't want him to write them making out while fighting the Amazo Virus, or whatever.

He didn't write the relationship into his Superman run because there was no reason to include Diana in the story.

Diana was NOT flirting with Captain Cold. He flirted with her. She did not flirt with him. She will not be jumping into bed with Captain Cold anytime soon. Sorry.

Whether he's tired of the relationship or not makes no difference. If the stories he's writing don't need to include references to Superman and Wonder Woman being lovers, then he won't spend a lot of time writing stuff like that.

And that still doesn't change the fact that Diana did NOT stop acting like a barbarian because Johns suddenly wasn't writing her and Clark kissing every other panel. She was acting like a barbarian in one issue (talking about killing Luthor and needing to be restrained from killing Metallo) and then, suddenly, Johns turned around and started writing Diana the way he should've been writing her all along. He offered no explanation. He didn't justify the change in the books. One issue, Diana's a vicious thug, the next issue she's Little Miss Nice-To-Luthor.

she doesn't care about people caught in the middle of the fight. she and superman together could easily throw magog far away from the bridge, if she had a plan. All she does is punching and people have to run away on their own.
she is much more into fighting than saving people, that is clear. she wants the fight, save people is just a consequence to her

She is into stopping the thing that is hurting people. By focusing on the villain, she focuses on stopping the threat to the people around her.

Firefighters do not stop to put out every little fire that breaks out around a building. They go straight for the heart of the fire and try to put it out, and THEN they go after the smaller blazes. Same thing.

You can keep saying "She only cares about fighting" all you like. It's not true. She cares about helping people. She believes (correctly) that stopping the threat is Priority #1, in order to save more people from being hurt. Taking care of the people who were already hurt is Priority #2.

she put a hot sword into Faora face, said that she will kill Zod.

That wasn't needless violence. Faora was an enemy combatant who was trying to kill her. The sword didn't kill her, it just hurt her badly enough to give Diana an advantage. Diana knows how quickly Kryptonians heal. There would've been no permanent damage done. You don't fight Kryptonians with kid gloves.

Threatening to kill Zod? You want to tell me YOU wouldn't threaten to kill someone who is threatening to kill someone you loved? That's not needless violence either. She was making it clear what would happen to Zod if he killed Superman.

she threw a tantrum in that naval ship, unecessary violence

That wasn't a tantrum. That ship fired on her and hurt her. She attacked it's weapon systems in order to prevent them from firing on her again. She didn't hurt any member of the crew. She could've sunk the ship with one punch if she wanted to. She didn't.

It was a measured and planned response. Not unnecessary at all.

[Blacksun]

He may have flirted a bit with her, but when was she flirting with him?

this seems very flirty to me. and I wasn't the only one, comicbook.com, retcon-punch sw that too

[Sacred Knight]

Yes, that's him flirting with her, everyone acknowledges that. He asked where did she flirt back with him. She never did. A pleasant smile does not count. He's being nice to her, flirty but not in an inappropriate manner, no reason for her to not at the very least find it flattering. This is nothing more than the same trope played with tons of times in the past where B, C, and D-list type heroes find themselves fighting alongside Wonder Woman and are in awe of her.