Erik Larsen Hates the new Ms. Marvel's Costume

[dragonmp93]

Wow, just wow. That is all I can say.

And that's why my Tumblr is now simply an online stash for R-rated stuff.

Well, as you might know, only the Sith deal in absolutes. It's not to say that every comment that a white man makes on race or gender relations is colored by privilege, but on balance the great majority of them are. Most will of course try to identify themselves as the exception, and argue their statements are just based on objective reality, and while it is certainly the case for some it is absolutely not so for everyone. And since white men are so eager these days to offer unsolicited opinions on these topics, the burden of proof is on them to show that their opinions come from a sensible place and not a world view distorted by a privileged upbringing.

Whether you agree with Larsen or not, he certainly didn't acquit himself well trying to explain his position. If he had just said he didn't like the costume and left it there we wouldn't still be discussing it, but then he decided to go on an incoherent rant about the vocal minority and practicality police and frumpy girl fantasies. These comments are certainly in line with someone who wants comics to continue to cater to his tastes regardless of what anyone else thinks, hence privilege.

Sure, and that feeling and attitude only goes in only one direction.

[Andy]

I know I'm late to the party but I can't say I disagree with the guy. With a different artist it might be better, but the ways it's rendered is awful.

It reminds me of Dmitrios and the back of the Avengers AI run. It's just goofy and plastic looking.

[Bl00dwerK]

I think it looks like crap, but I guess it works with whatever tone that book is going for...

[Iron Maiden]

I agree with your latter point...being more clear and looking at an issue from as many points of view as possible is best.

But I still see the dismissing of an other's opinion based on them being privileged is pretty similar to doing so based on them being overly sensitive.

The only real difference is that one tries to belittle and one tries to vilify.

Totally agree with this. I think the "privilege" theory can be a lot of horse excrement esp on the internet where you can't even see the person who is replying. I could be from Mars from all anyone knows.

[hawkeyefan]

There are entire fields of research in academia about privilege. And it's not an assertion, Larsen is in fact privileged here as he is part of the demograghic that the majority of the Big 2 cater for. The second part is to check whether he factored his privilege into account when making his comments and going from his comments towards those like Gaile Simone whom would not be part of the prime demographic he did not check his privilege. In fact his argument was so incoherent one could say he did not really think of what he wanted to say he just wanted to be controversial for the sake of being controversial or just had a bad day and wanted to argue and it all blew up.

I'm not saying that privilege doesn't exist, nor that Larsen's POV was free of it.

What I am saying is that there are many ways that people will attempt to dismiss the opinions of others. As you pointed out, sometimes it is by accusing them of oversensitivity. I think that accusing people of privilege can be used for the same result. But that doesn't mean that every instance of those things is done to dismiss the views of others.

In this case, I think there was a bit of both at play. Larsen's views seem to come from a privileged position in the sense that he wants things to remain as they always were.

But some of those who disagreed with him were certainly being over sensitive. Their reactions seemed stronger than his actions warranted.

Totally agree with this. I think the "privilege" theory can be a lot of horse excrement esp on the internet where you can't even see the person who is replying. I could be from Mars from all anyone knows.

Yeah, the anonymity of the internet can make it tricky to discuss these topics at times. It's funny because in the absence of details about each other without them being volunteered, it would be easy to treat each opinion as carrying the same weight. But that doesn't always seem to be what people actually want.

[PwrdOn]

Even though privilege is thrown around so much these days as a pejorative, we would all do well to remember that it's not actually a bad thing. After all, when it comes down to it civil rights is just about minorities aspiring to have the same kinds of privileges that white men enjoy, no one is arguing that those at the top of the ladder should just be laid low in the name of fairness. But as the saying goes "to whom much is given, much will be required," and those with privilege are obliged to use that power responsibly to make the world a better place rather than jealously guarding their position and keeping others down.

[Trident]

Wow, just wow. That is all I can say.

For the record Im a minority and I feel the same way.

That type of thinking is just as bad as any type of hate speech or active discrimination. In short it keeps the hate alive :smh:


As to the Subject matter Joe Q. said something the other day to a fan that is worth sharing....

Funny how you insult the customers for having the bad attitudes. Marvel is disgraceful acting their any customer who complains. Bendis, Wacker, Slott, Brevoort, Ellis, and on and on... Where is your comment about their inexcusable behavior toward paying customers who don't think they are any good? Or your big mouth buddy Mark Millar, who is about the most offensive "professional" I've ever witnessed...

Joe:
I think you’re misreading my post, I’m not insulting our customers, I’m making a point about “some people” who rather than discuss, debate, agree or disagree in a respectful fashion, post and say things to creators and fellow fans in the most horrible fashion without taking into consideration that the person on the other side loves the art form just as much as they do. There are folks out there who think that we sit in our offices at Marvel twirling our mustaches (I wish I could grow one) trying to figure out how to destroy these characters because… I don’t know, we all want to be unemployed tomorrow?

I love comics. I love this industry. I love these characters. I always have, that’s why I chose to work in this field and I haven’t left. By the way, the same is true of every one at DC, Image, Dynamic, Valiant, IDW, Archie, and all the rest. If they’re working in comics it’s because they love it and can’t imagine being anywhere but here. This doesn’t mean I don’t want to hear, respect or expect criticism, that’s not an issue, it comes with the territory. What shouldn’t be a part of it are the personal attacks that have nothing to do with the work, especially coming from someone who has no idea who you are or what you’re all about.

With respect to the fellas on your list, I don’t know what inexcusable behavior you’re referring to, but I known that they all love this medium and the fans as well. I see them at conventions and online, they’re giving of their time, funny, even cheeky at times, even when provoked in horrible ways. But, I’ve never known them to behave inexcusably.

I’m sorry if you felt insulted by my comment but I think the point I’m making is a valid one, at least from my perspective. It certainly wasn’t directed at our customers as I don’t think the majority of people are guilty of what I’m describing, but those that are make things a lot less fun for everyone from creators to fans and that includes Marvel customers.

http://joequesada.tumblr.com/post/11...for-having-the

And it goes back to what I said earlier in a lot of ways.

No not everyone has to agree with everything but that also doesn't mean that we have to be indecent to creators or fans who disagree.

[PwrdOn]

From what I can tell, creators are far more rude and nasty to fans than the other way around, since fans still depend on creators to put out a product they enjoy. On the other hand, most creators don't seem to feel like they owe the fans anything, especially because of the perception that the Marvel zombies will keep coming back for more no matter how much they complain about the result, perhaps justifiably so. And it's a bit disingenuous for them to complain about fans overreacting because a lot of what they put out is specifically designed to provoke that response. If anyone remembers that whole controversy about the "M word" in Uncanny Avengers #5, it's hard to imagine that Marvel didn't foresee the reaction beforehand or that Remender's "drown in hobo piss" line was entirely spontaneous. They even prepared a response to their own story in a subsequent issue and had another character repudiate that statement in-universe.

[Iron Maiden]

On the other hand...have you ever followed Tom Brevoorts tumblr open Q & A? I'd hate to see the posts he deletes after seeing some of the things some "fans" post there.

[Trident]

From what I can tell, creators are far more rude and nasty to fans than the other way around, since fans still depend on creators to put out a product they enjoy. On the other hand, most creators don't seem to feel like they owe the fans anything, especially because of the perception that the Marvel zombies will keep coming back for more no matter how much they complain about the result, perhaps justifiably so. And it's a bit disingenuous for them to complain about fans overreacting because a lot of what they put out is specifically designed to provoke that response. If anyone remembers that whole controversy about the "M word" in Uncanny Avengers #5, it's hard to imagine that Marvel didn't foresee the reaction beforehand or that Remender's "drown in hobo piss" line was entirely spontaneous. They even prepared a response to their own story in a subsequent issue and had another character repudiate that statement in-universe.

You totally missed what Joe Quasada was saying. I also bet you won't be a lone in that. It's a large reason why this thread is so long and in another sense why many people will never see eye to eye.

The guy clearly stated that both sides should remember when talking to people that they are human beings with feelings of their own and they both deserve to be respected. But of course blame shifting and personal justifications seems to be the means several live by.

[PwrdOn]

You totally missed what Joe Quasada was saying. I also bet you won't be a lone in that. It's a large reason why this thread is so long and in another sense why many people will never see eye to eye.

The guy clearly stated that both sides should remember when talking to people that they are human beings with feelings of their own and they both deserve to be respected. But of course blame shifting and personal justifications seems to be the means several live by.

Quesada's post might sound nice, but he just dismissed the content of the question out of hand and then puts the onus entirely on the fans to set the tone of the discussion, which is silly because the creators have a much louder voice in this than we do. In this thread I've seen far more denunciation of personal attacks and incivility against Larsen than actual comments that would fit in that category. People who disagree with him just want to argue the merits of his point, but instead we get dragged into this long winded argument about what's acceptable to say when the actual number of objectionable comments against Larsen have been relatively few. The worst thing I've seen is that a fellow creator called Larsen an asshole, which is pretty light and unlikely to hurt anyone's feelings in this day and age.

[Trident]

Quesada's post might sound nice, but he just dismissed the content of the question out of hand and then puts the onus entirely on the fans to set the tone of the discussion, which is silly because the creators have a much louder voice in this than we do. In this thread I've seen far more denunciation of personal attacks and incivility against Larsen than actual comments that would fit in that category. People who disagree with him just want to argue the merits of his point, but instead we get dragged into this long winded argument about what's acceptable to say when the actual number of objectionable comments against Larsen have been relatively few. The worst thing I've seen is that a fellow creator called Larsen an asshole, which is pretty light and unlikely to hurt anyone's feelings in this day and age.

Lol, you are justifing the wrong thing and keeping negativity alive. That "fans" post was a direct response to this:

It has never ceased to amaze me how some people, in defense of their favorite fictional characters or stories, treat creators and each other, flesh and blood people living actual lives with actual feelings and families, with such disrespect and cruelty as though they were two-dimensional, fictional villains who merely exist on a page or the imagination.

http://joequesada.tumblr.com/post/11...ome-people#_=_

So no offense meant but the only thing your proving now is how hard it is to change perception when personal bias against a group (this case creators) has already formed in your mind. You know the same way it is with racist, homophos, and so on.

Some may try to pretend they are so different from someone else but the truth still remains is that we are all human who fail at being human on a daily basis. Instead of trying so hard to separate each other with judgmental labels and "holier than thou" speeches maybe some should work on coming at one another with idea that deep down we all want the same things out of life. Only then will real change take place.

[MagSeven]

I agree with Larsen about the costume, but as a big fan of Larsen's and seeing a lot of his costume designs (particularly the female ones), he's kind of throwing stones in glass houses here. But whatevs. Opinions are like assholes.

[cranger]

Lol, you are justifing the wrong thing and keeping negativity alive. That "fans" post was a direct response to this.

I will admit seeing this statement helps digest his longer explanation. I do not even see why he had to elaborate on that.

[hawkeyefan]

From what I can tell, creators are far more rude and nasty to fans than the other way around, since fans still depend on creators to put out a product they enjoy. On the other hand, most creators don't seem to feel like they owe the fans anything, especially because of the perception that the Marvel zombies will keep coming back for more no matter how much they complain about the result, perhaps justifiably so. And it's a bit disingenuous for them to complain about fans overreacting because a lot of what they put out is specifically designed to provoke that response. If anyone remembers that whole controversy about the "M word" in Uncanny Avengers #5, it's hard to imagine that Marvel didn't foresee the reaction beforehand or that Remender's "drown in hobo piss" line was entirely spontaneous. They even prepared a response to their own story in a subsequent issue and had another character repudiate that statement in-universe.

I disagree. Look at how people talk about creators here on this site and others...all kinds of hyperbole about raping childhood and destroying characters and so on. And as Iron Maiden pointed out, Brevoort's tumblr page is astounding. I think he handles those comments with a level of class that is impressive.

This all ties in to keeping things in perspective. We tend not to do it. And although you said it could be argued that who you are on the internet is who you really were all along, it's hard not to acknowledge that the internet tends to exaggerate things. People go overboard because there are no consequences to what they say.

And yes, Marvel and the writers want to get a response...they like stories that cause debate and controversy. But there is a level that is appropriate when we're talking about fictional characters.

It just seems insane to be disrespectful to a real person as an attempt to get them to be respectful to a fictional person.