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Thread: Gotham TV Show

  1. #1531
    Twitter: @theprattlp donpricetag's Avatar
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    I think some of you missed the point of the whole Jerome/Joker relationship. Before Jerome there was no one like him. We saw him as the Joker because the many similarities the shoe obviously and purposely inserted. After his death, go back to what his father said. He'll be a curse. You don't have to be alive or actively doing anything currently to build a legacy. The laugh isnt going to cause a killing spree, but it will inspire another broken person to take on a mantle that doesn't exist. Jerome died but his madness lives on, much like his everlasting grin. The show is pushing the Joker as a state of mind, perhaps like a desease, almost as a title that has to carry on before it reaches the actual Joker we know and then to somone. Terry McGinnis was created because the world needs a Batman, what if the world also needs a Joker? In. The future, Batman creates the Joker but the Batman also sstepped forward to stop mad men like the Joker. Yin and yang.

    Jerome isn't the Joker, but perhaps was originator of the Joker as a curse. The Joker may from this point on always exist.
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  2. #1532
    Mighty Member WeaponX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donpricetag View Post
    I think some of you missed the point of the whole Jerome/Joker relationship. Before Jerome there was no one like him. We saw him as the Joker because the many similarities the shoe obviously and purposely inserted. After his death, go back to what his father said. He'll be a curse. You don't have to be alive or actively doing anything currently to build a legacy. The laugh isnt going to cause a killing spree, but it will inspire another broken person to take on a mantle that doesn't exist. Jerome died but his madness lives on, much like his everlasting grin. The show is pushing the Joker as a state of mind, perhaps like a desease, almost as a title that has to carry on before it reaches the actual Joker we know and then to somone. Terry McGinnis was created because the world needs a Batman, what if the world also needs a Joker? In. The future, Batman creates the Joker but the Batman also sstepped forward to stop mad men like the Joker. Yin and yang.

    Jerome isn't the Joker, but perhaps was originator of the Joker as a curse. The Joker may from this point on always exist.
    I think everyone got that it's a pretty obvious implication with that ending people just find it to be a cop out. It's contrived and pretty unoriginal since we already used that schtick with the Red Hood. I'm sorry not every villian can be an idea some actually have to show up. Also I think many and the Joker himself would reject the idea as the Joker being inspired by someone else the Joker doesn't think like that and is certainly too egotistical to carry on a mantel he wants to be the real deal not a shadow of someone else. Yes the real Joker wants to spread his sickness but as his legacy not an urban myth not a copy cat of a copy cat. The Joker always has seemed preoccupied with being original and doing it first.

  3. #1533
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    With Jerome off of the picture, Nygma starting a Smeagol/Gollum comedy routine and Bruce being more and more of a brat, well, i'm really starting to find this show less and less appealing.

  4. #1534
    Mighty Member 90'sCartoonMan's Avatar
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    You know, I could see this as an actual Batman plot. Replace Jerome with a disguised Joker and have a grown-up Bruce Wayne held hostage at a magic show trying to figure out how to stop him without blowing his secret and then working with Gordon to help him out.

    Loved Alfred being so into Lee, and Bruce and Selina's interaction. So Jerome gets a "Why so serious?" moment with his father. Well played. I'll miss Jerome, but he was too good a Joker to have around with no Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    I have to say that Theo Galavan is the worst actor I've ever seen (the character, not the actual actor). When he "confronted" Jerome on the stage it was such an overblown, melodramatic piece of ham acting I can't believe anyone took it seriously.
    I actually laughed when he turned to the camera and announced his name (complete with Jerome just standing there and letting him). So obvious, but in a tense situation like this, I guess no one is thinking it's some kind of ploy.

    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    So I'm guessing Tabitha and Theo aren't actually siblings? Or are they closer than Wanda and Pietro?
    She did look pretty jealous when Barbara was making nice with Theo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Majesty View Post
    Jerome didn't "Joker-ize" Gotham, he just inspired more madness in a city that is already on the tipping point. Though there is probably a kid out there that will see his actions and go "Hmm... I LIKE this guys style..he's a lot like me... except I can do that...and I can do it a LOT..better..." and guess who that kid will become? "The Joker" is just as much a Symbol as "Batman". Why wouldn't he be? So it makes a lot of sense.
    Precisely. Those people laughing at Jerome were already psychos and had that urge inside them. Seeing him do what he did and have a grand time of it just inspired the part of them that's already there. There are some diseased people in Gotham.

    Quote Originally Posted by donpricetag View Post
    The show is pushing the Joker as a state of mind, perhaps like a desease, almost as a title that has to carry on before it reaches the actual Joker we know and then to somone. Terry McGinnis was created because the world needs a Batman, what if the world also needs a Joker? In. The future, Batman creates the Joker but the Batman also sstepped forward to stop mad men like the Joker. Yin and yang.
    Speaking of Terry McGinnis, this ending reminded me a lot of the Jokerz from Batman Beyond. Again, a bunch of crazies who actually look up to the Joker and want to emulate his behavior.

    Having said that, if we get a real Joker at the very end of the series, I'm kind of hoping he'll be played by Cameron Monaghan anyway with no indication of how Jerome returned or even if this is Jerome.

  5. #1535
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    I think everyone got that it's a pretty obvious implication with that ending people just find it to be a cop out. It's contrived and pretty unoriginal since we already used that schtick with the Red Hood.
    This.

    Not a good sign when you're already repeating storylines in your second season.

  6. #1536
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sCartoonMan View Post
    You know, I could see this as an actual Batman plot. Replace Jerome with a disguised Joker and have a grown-up Bruce Wayne held hostage at a magic show trying to figure out how to stop him without blowing his secret and then working with Gordon to help him out.
    I also think it was a pretty classic Joker and Harley act, just with Jerome and Barbara, and Barbara really fills the role of Harley Quinn quite well without actually being Harley (that we know). From dressing up as that sexy magicians assistant, which really showed off her amazing legs, complete with really getting into that role and enjoying the caper, being blonde, bi, crazy with Mad Love for a certain someone (Jim)...and as pointed out, she bonked someone on the head with a hammer .

    She did look pretty jealous when Barbara was making nice with Theo.
    I couldn't tell if that kissing session between her and Barbara was meant to make Theo jealous or just her really getting into it, and likewise I'm not sure whether she was jealous of Theo flirting with Barbara or Barbara flirting with Theo. Something is definitely off about these siblings.

    Having said that, if we get a real Joker at the very end of the series, I'm kind of hoping he'll be played by Cameron Monaghan anyway with no indication of how Jerome returned or even if this is Jerome.
    Admittedly, with the glasgow grin, he now really looks like the Joker.

  7. #1537
    Astonishing Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donpricetag View Post
    Jerome isn't the Joker, but perhaps was originator of the Joker as a curse. The Joker may from this point on always exist.
    I think Jerome set a tone for the collective city of Gotham, but it's very unlikely to me that he created a Joker Curse. I also think it's unlikely he will be the inspiration for the actual Joker, who is probably years away from an appearance (as crazy maniacal Joker anyway). Joker is unique, one of a kind, and his origin needs to reflect that. The creative team has given us every indication that they understand that, and I expect his emergence to be gradual, tied intimately into a much larger picture, and completely worthy of the character.
    Why yes, I AM a Mark Goodson/Bill Toddman production.

  8. #1538
    Fantastic Member cadet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post

    So I'm guessing Tabitha and Theo aren't actually siblings? Or are they closer than Wanda and Pietro?
    I think the elephant in the room that they aren't even the same race is kind of a giveaway. Granted one could be adopted or half-siblings.

    ...............Not to start any heated internet debate a la the casting of the Fantastic Four reboot.

  9. #1539
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    The final scene looked a lot like it was trying to convey some kind of attack was going on... Joker venom, or something like it, which is supported by the expression on Jerome's corpse's face. Especially odd was the pair who seemed to turn into a couple of mindless killers in the blink of an eye.

    But I guess the show was trying to hint at the "One Bad Day" concept from the Joker's Killing Joke origin story... that the shock of seeing someone do what the Maniax had been doing, combined with an already borderline mental state, could push people over the line into complete mania. But the show made it look like something supernatural.

    I wonder what makes Barbara think Theo isn't using her the same way he was using Jerome, with the same ultimate result?

  10. #1540
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    This episode made me all the more convinced that Theo is connected to the Court of Owls somehow.

  11. #1541
    Astonishing Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    I wonder what makes Barbara think Theo isn't using her the same way he was using Jerome, with the same ultimate result?
    Perhaps she believes she's using him? I suspect (though loathe to admit it, because I don't care for Barbara) that she will outlive him.
    Why yes, I AM a Mark Goodson/Bill Toddman production.

  12. #1542
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    Came across a post with a pretty out-there theory that Theo Galavan is spoilers:
    The Architect, Zachary Gate, from Batman: Gates of Gotham
    end of spoilers. Parts of it are a reach, but it's something to think about at least


    Whole article is here.

  13. #1543
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    You know Alfred, not liking magicians is pretty normal.

    So we can add incest to Theo and Tabitha's list of "charming" quirks?


    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    Yeah, no. First Gotham is already in desperate need of Batman. There are criminal organization operating with impunity, random psychos killing people be the score daily, and a completely corrupt GCPD that can't get anything done within the rules.

    Second there isn't anywhere for the real joker to take Jeromes act to the next level besides putting on some makeup. Jerome already was the force of chaos that revals in his evil that the Joker is. So really this relagates the real Joker to being a knock off of the original. Sure Jerome didn't take up the name or the clown look but everything that really makes the Joker the Joker Jerome already did. Like another poster put it so well if your going to use a red herring you better make sure it's not better than your actual answer. And I have a hard time thinking of a better back story or an actor that will play the young Joker better than the kid that played Jerome.

    Also I realize the show isn't going to set up every major Batman villian but they are going to need to stop with these fake outs they have already used it with the Red Hood and now the Joker and it's already tiresome. You won't find many fans investing in your show if you keep devoting episodes of content to red herrings. It's basically says to the viewer yeah you wasted your time watching those episodes.

    Oh and the Joker as a symbol is a horrible idea. There is a reason every serial killer ever has failed to start the blood revolution so many crave. It's because most people even the evil ones don't set out to be the bad guy it's not something that anyone really sets as a goal. And the few that do are so egotistical they are never going to take up someone else's monicker they want credit. That's why many get caught they can't stand not taking credit for their actions not getting the fame they deserve.
    What exactly has Jerome done that can't be topped by the Joker or some other villain? Most of the stuff he pulled wasn't even his idea, it was someone else pulling the strings. He didn't break out of Arkham himself, he needed someone else to do that for him.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-06-2015 at 11:28 AM.

  14. #1544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    So we can add incest to Theo and Tabitha's list of "charming" quirks?
    Not necessarily. First, do we know--for a fact--that they're actually (biologically and/or legally) brother and sister? Could be a Barry/Iris thing. Second, her saying that he's good in bed doesn't necessarily mean that she's slept with him herself. Girls talk, just like guys do. And I certainly wouldn't put it past her to say something like that just for shock value.

  15. #1545
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewCrossett View Post
    I wonder what makes Barbara think Theo isn't using her the same way he was using Jerome, with the same ultimate result?
    Why would you assume she doesn't think that? I can't imagine that she doesn't have her antenna up after what happened with Jerome. But just because she's not running for the hills right away doesn't mean she trusts Theo or is blind to the threat he poses. I would assume she's sticking around because she thinks that, for as long as Theo sticks to the script, there's something in it for her. And when the time comes that Theo tries to flip the script, she probably thinks she'll be able to see it coming and maneuver herself into the upper hand position.

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