Gotham TV Show

[Immortal Weapon]

Yeah, she killed a man who nearly killed Alfred and threatened to rat Bruce out, yeah, I'll excuse that. Especially in light of the assassins that went after her in earlier episodes.

The eye-gouging happened pretty early IIRC and I didn't like it then but I excused it because it was early and she was trying to escape from people that were kidnapping her and a bunch of other kids. She wasn't with Fish then.

Her depth and complexity is pretty much gone, replaced by tight clothing and whips.

Remember Bruce's plotline early this season? How this show broke his sacred no-kill rule? They did it by making Bruce feel so guilty over Ra's killing that kid that he felt he had no other option. Even so, he still hesitated like he did the other times he was confronted with the temptation to kill, only this time he gave in.
Afterwards, he was so distraught that he went down a downward spiral he is yet to climb out of.

We don't get any of this depth with her now, we just are flippantly put into situations like where she involves herself in kidnapping a child without going into her thought process at all. A character as complex as her deserves better.

I mean, she was a victim of kidnapping in the 2nd episode of the show and this show is currently trying to convince me she would have no problem kidnapping other kids

Selina has done worst things on this show. Why would she bat an eye at kidnapping? That's a slap on the wrist on this show.

[DR14]

Selina has done worst things on this show. Why would she bat an eye at kidnapping? That's a slap on the wrist on this show.

I answered that somewhat in my last post, but I will expand. While it's true that Selina hasn't got some great compassion for every kid in the world, it is a fact that she's been introduced as someone who does have compassion for the weak.

In the pilot, she doesn't just sit there on the staircase going "whatever" about Bruce's parents being murdered. Later, she nurses Ivy back to health when she's sick, and that's despite the fact that she thinks she's "scary". She cares for Bridget, another victim of abuse. She feeds Bridget's pigeons after she thinks she's dead.

There's a rather jarring contrast between that girl and the two-bit villain participating in kidnapping a bullied child.

[Jackalope89]

I answered that somewhat in my last post, but I will expand. While it's true that Selina hasn't got some great compassion for every kid in the world, it is a fact that she's been introduced as someone who does have compassion for the weak.

In the pilot, she doesn't just sit there on the staircase going "whatever" about Bruce's parents being murdered. Later, she nurses Ivy back to health when she's sick, and that's despite the fact that she thinks she's "scary". She cares for Bridget, another victim of abuse. She feeds Bridget's pigeons after she thinks she's dead.

There's a rather jarring contrast between that girl and the two-bit villain participating in kidnapping a bullied child.

While kidnapped, Martin (however you spell it) wasn't even bound by his wrists. For her faults, I don't see Selina allowing an innocent little kid to come to harm. Or even Falcone (she does seem to have a soft spot for the kids). Hence why, barring Barbara and maybe Tabitha, they seemed pretty shocked at what happened to Martin.

[Immortal Weapon]

I answered that somewhat in my last post, but I will expand. While it's true that Selina hasn't got some great compassion for every kid in the world, it is a fact that she's been introduced as someone who does have compassion for the weak.

In the pilot, she doesn't just sit there on the staircase going "whatever" about Bruce's parents being murdered. Later, she nurses Ivy back to health when she's sick, and that's despite the fact that she thinks she's "scary". She cares for Bridget, another victim of abuse. She feeds Bridget's pigeons after she thinks she's dead.

There's a rather jarring contrast between that girl and the two-bit villain participating in kidnapping a bullied child.

Selina doesn't know a thing about Martin. Her normal compassion wouldn't be there. It seems like Selina stopped giving a shit about Bridget seeing how annoyed she was when Bridget came through the fight club.

[AndrewCrossett]

I think we keep expecting for Selina to be a heroine, but that's not what Catwoman is. She wouldn't have been OK with hurting Martin, but she probably reasoned he was better off out of Penguin's control than in it.

As for Martin, I keep expecting that kid to grin, put a knife in somebody's back and say, "Sucker!"

I'm almost disappointed Penguin didn't kill the kid, TBH. Would have taken him to a whole new level... and he has to know that this kind of soft spot really is a weakness.

[inisideguy]

I think we keep expecting for Selina to be a heroine, but that's not what Catwoman is. She wouldn't have been OK with hurting Martin, but she probably reasoned he was better off out of Penguin's control than in it.

As for Martin, I keep expecting that kid to grin, put a knife in somebody's back and say, "Sucker!"

I'm almost disappointed Penguin didn't kill the kid, TBH. Would have taken him to a whole new level... and he has to know that this kind of soft spot really is a weakness.

Selina kyle has always been the most pragmatic character in comics. She looks out for herself. She has moments of goodness but is not a character of high morals.

[DR14]

I don't expect her to be a heroine, or a character of high morals. I mean I justified two of her "wrong" actions.

My problem is it is not clear that she reasoned that Martin would be better off out of Oswald's control and it is not logical to infer that she did based on the events that occur. Her only dialogue in the sequence of events is her commenting the kid doesn't speak (thanks Selina, I did not know that).

And the whole point of the kidnapping to begin with was to hold him for ransom so Sofia could control the underworld. So if Oswald relented, he would've just gone back to him anyway. If he didn't, Sofia threatened to kill him (where was her reaction to this threat if not harming the kid was something she was worried about?), so the kid was put in mortal danger. And as far as everyone involved knows except Zsasz and Oswald, the kid is dead.

[feenix219]

I don't think Bane would show up until after Bruce dons the mask. Most versions (not the 90s live action version, certainly) have him as a similar, but also opposite version of Bruce growing up. So I hope Bane is the one villain we don't see pop up.

Or would it be the first time we get to see the actual Bane story from his origin, coming from his point of view, surviving Santa Prisca, meeting 3 other kids from Gotham (Bird, Zombie, i forget the third?) that tell him tales of the city, with him having visions of the Bat... making him younger works better, since his original story was growing up as a child in jail, suffering for the sins of his father. The Venom would have to be a proto Venom that gives him super strength, maybe, thats about it. They could parallel the rise of Bruce and Bane at the same time as a dark mirror, each having dreams and visions of the Bat.

[Immortal Weapon]

A proto Venom already appeared way back in season 1.

[tabo61]

Bruce Wayne is is a pain

[AndrewCrossett]

Wow, it really looks like the producers are convinced this is the last season. Previews show Jerome becoming the full-fledged Joker and Bruce picking up the cowl.

Nice going, Jim. You figured out Sofia had her father killed roughly 40 minutes after everyone in the viewing audience.

Aw... no more Grundy?

Really surprised to see actual emotion from Zsasz. Has he been secretly loyal to Sofia ever since she arrived, even when he was threatening to kill her?

The intro to this episode called it the "season finale." American TV really should drop the whole "season" thing and go to "series" like British TV.

[Osiris-Rex]

Wow, it really looks like the producers are convinced this is the last season. Previews show Jerome becoming the full-fledged Joker and Bruce picking up the cowl.

Nice going, Jim. You figured out Sofia had her father killed roughly 40 minutes after everyone in the viewing audience.

Really surprised to see actual emotion from Zsasz. Has he been secretly loyal to Sofia ever since she arrived, even when he was threatening to kill her?

I think Victor was loyal to Carmine. Even though we saw it was Sofia, it seemed like Victor thought it was Penguin.
It would be a shame if this is the last season of Gotham. They have really upped their game. This is the best season yet by far.
And I like they have their own version of Gotham City Sirens.

[AndrewCrossett]

I think Victor was loyal to Carmine. Even though we saw it was Sofia, it seemed like Victor thought it was Penguin.

I'm thinking Sofia's downfall will happen shortly after Victor finds out she had Carmine killed.

It would be a shame if this is the last season of Gotham. They have really upped their game. This is the best season yet by far.

I agree, but they really seem to be rushing some storylines that should by rights take longer to play out. This whole business with Bruce suddenly turning into Joffrey Bieber seems really jarring and unnatural, and I think that's because it was supposed to happen more gradually... but the show is down to its last dozen episodes and they need to rush to get the show to its planned end point. I hope I'm wrong... I'd like to get another season of the show. It's such a mess, but it's also a hell of a lot of fun.

And I like they have their own version of Gotham City Sirens.

I do like them, though they need to get rid of Sofia and bring Ivy back. Whatever body she's in now. Obviously I no longer think Barbara is destined to become Harley... and since they used a lot of Harley hints on her, I'm assuming that character will never be on this show. Oh well, maybe it's for the best. I'd like to have seen Erin Richards in the role.

I hope we get to see more development for Selina too. She shouldn't be the junior tag-along of the Sirens, and people keep getting the drop on her. She's still a long way from being Catwoman.

[Osiris-Rex]

In the previews they showed the recast Ivy sharing a scene with Bruce so it will be interesting if she gets integrated into the Sirens.

[Barbatos666]

Nah, just an aside about the tiers of villains, when someone listed what were considered "A listers". And exactly; no adaptation has come close to even remotely understanding Bane or his character from the actual comics. Although, later comics lose sight of that as well.

I think Arkham Origins, TDKR and now Telltale Batman season two are damn good interpretations of Bane. I wouldn't want Bane on Gotham though, largely because it has a whole lot of useless characters that writers keep adding on and on. Plus with their die hard boner for Penguin lol I dont see them having Bane take over the underworld and sticking with it which is the only logical arc for him if he's not there to confront Batman. But knowing Gotham he'll show up, kick the crap out of Penguin and then Penguin returns and takes over again the end because its the same plot line Penguin keeps getting every season. So unless they get rid of Penguin I have no hope for a Gotham Bane.

Another potential arc I guess could be him vs all the rogues, he takes over and they all have to team up to get rid of him or he's introduced as Ra's al Ghul's other potential successor which pits him against Bruce and sets him as a dark twin but Nolan already used that plot line and I dont think a teenager Bane is the way to go.