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  1. #1
    BANNED The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Default Post Crisis Wonder Woman vs Android 18

    Android 18 was rather overhyped in another thread recently but Im curious to see where she actually ranks according to most posters here

    Can she beat wonder woman?

  2. #2
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    No. And for the usual reasons.

    Near-lightspeed Class 100 Diana punches 18 holes in Android before she even gets going and then uses those holes to play golf.

  3. #3
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Yup, it's just a speed thing. DBZ folks simply don't show reaction speed on the level of the "Post-Crisis DC Flying Brick Pack." I would say that 18 could hurt Diana - I'm really OK with her being planet-buster-y - but her total lack of equivalent speed means that she's simply never going to get a chance to do so.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member Kuro's Avatar
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    I seem to recall there was a massive Android 18 VS WW thread before the crash.

    ...WW won that one, too.

    Man, what IS it about Dragon Ball Z rumbles?

  5. #5
    BANNED The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    I see. So which is the weakest DBZ character that could beat Wonder Woman? At which point in the series is their durability too much for her speed, does that point exist at all? Or maybe at some point their speed matches hers?

  6. #6
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    I see. So which is the weakest DBZ character that could beat Wonder Woman? At which point in the series is their durability too much for her speed, does that point exist at all? Or maybe at some point their speed matches hers?
    Buu, certainly.

    Pissed-off the-only-one-who-slaps-my-bitch-up-is-me SSJ Vegeta? Dude made casual-planet-buster Beerus work for it, and his speed was high enough to let him surprise the guy with snap-dodges and such.

  7. #7
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    The "problem" is that DBZ stuff is both beloved and open to MASSIVE AMOUNTS of interpretation, especially with some of the semi-explicit power-scaling that goes on in the manga and the supporting materials.

    So some of the people who love it (and I do enjoy it myself) are going to take the higher-end interpretations (I don't, for speed), while people who don't, er, aren't.

    The speed issue is this: we never at all see DBZers do anything explicit like out-react radio waves or explicitly comment on how slow laser beams are moving. We know that, a very, very long time ago (back in DB, pre-DBZ), when the main cast was young and innocent and possessing powerlevels in the low triple digits, they could move so fast in a fight that the audience in an arena had trouble following their actions. We know that SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta have base power levels around 150 million or something, and that was several explicit upgrades, some other transformations, and a bunch of training ago for both of those guys (and training in DBZ, especially for a Saiyan, means a lot.

    Does this mean that SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta are one million times faster than 21st Budokai Goku, or Master Roshi? There is where it's hard to say. There is, for me, absolutely no reason to assume that powerlevel and speed scale linearly with each other. Do they scale? Sure. Linearly? Not so sure about that.

  8. #8
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    The "problem" is that DBZ stuff is both beloved and open to MASSIVE AMOUNTS of interpretation, especially with some of the semi-explicit power-scaling that goes on in the manga and the supporting materials.

    So some of the people who love it (and I do enjoy it myself) are going to take the higher-end interpretations (I don't, for speed), while people who don't, er, aren't.
    I don't really see it as just being "loved" or not - I see it as how people view feats, and if they favor obvious implication more than letter of the law. Also, there's a jump between people that are more used to Asian storytelling styles and mythology and those that are not (there are still a large number of people that don't understand that the characters' energy attacks are completely different and have entirely different properties, and those that don't understand that they focus the same ki into various attributes like speed/defense/strikes/blasts etc. while fighting. Even when games like Xenoverse explicitly have you constantly doing these things as a player and showing you exactly how they are conceived to work over there).

    I'm actually "harder" here on series that I really like than I am more unfamiliar with or don't like - just due to familiarity, personally.

    Also, there is a HUUUUUUGE gulf between people that primarily know the series from the manga, and those that know it from the anime. The anime has stuff happening verrrry slowly, regular people reacting to fights, massive inconsistencies, etc., while the manga flows completely differently.

    People here that put DBZ characters at DC brick level early on don't really do it because of numerical power levels, but instead, due to feats combined with massive noted jumps, combined with other feats. Stuff like kamehamehas consistently going waaaaay outside of the atmosphere in seconds (in manga and anime) by the android saga and to the moon in seconds, and people that have proven to be able to react to those things. People being able to blitz THOSE characters, and so on and so forth. Travel speed, which is explicitly stated to be slower than reaction speed (because of them having to dump a ton of ki into it), allowing them to circle the planet multiple times. EOS characters ie. Bills, being clearly beyond light in travel. Etc.

    So many combined things add up, that you see the implications and give them the basic ability as opposed to trying to argue against every single one not being 100% proven on an individual level, is basically the difference of viewpoint there.

    Because of those differences in viewpoint DBZ is one of the few things that allows enough interpretation to actually have longer debates on here, as opposed to many other things which is just "known feat = speed wins" or "just too powerful for this other person to beat" and ends after a page. That's why those threads generally last for so long.

    Personally, I put around Freeza level for where post crisis DC bricks don't make much difference in speed to normally get the win, and you need someone like Martian Manhunter with more esoteric powers to get the win. Freeza's planet explosion durability and significant fraction of lightspeed can absorb most of the speed difference from bricks (as their blitz-level attacks are significantly under moon busting - Superman actually has to wind up/charge for that, and moon busting is swatted away by those characters) enough to AOE them.

    18 has significantly above Freeza level default durability and speed and an AOE, so she can basically easily take people like Wonder Woman, imo.

    The flip side to that is that those with variable durability like most of the heroes, and especially the humans can actually be hurt by less than moon busting if they don't have the time to react and block. So if it was Krillen or Tenshinhan or something, it would be another story.

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