Post Crisis Wonder Woman vs Android 18

[The Dork Knight]

Android 18 was rather overhyped in another thread recently but Im curious to see where she actually ranks according to most posters here

Can she beat wonder woman?

[Beadle]

No. And for the usual reasons.

Near-lightspeed Class 100 Diana punches 18 holes in Android before she even gets going and then uses those holes to play golf.

[big_adventure]

Yup, it's just a speed thing. DBZ folks simply don't show reaction speed on the level of the "Post-Crisis DC Flying Brick Pack." I would say that 18 could hurt Diana - I'm really OK with her being planet-buster-y - but her total lack of equivalent speed means that she's simply never going to get a chance to do so.

[Kuro]

I seem to recall there was a massive Android 18 VS WW thread before the crash.

...WW won that one, too.

Man, what IS it about Dragon Ball Z rumbles?

[The Dork Knight]

I see. So which is the weakest DBZ character that could beat Wonder Woman? At which point in the series is their durability too much for her speed, does that point exist at all? Or maybe at some point their speed matches hers?

[big_adventure]

The "problem" is that DBZ stuff is both beloved and open to MASSIVE AMOUNTS of interpretation, especially with some of the semi-explicit power-scaling that goes on in the manga and the supporting materials.

So some of the people who love it (and I do enjoy it myself) are going to take the higher-end interpretations (I don't, for speed), while people who don't, er, aren't.

The speed issue is this: we never at all see DBZers do anything explicit like out-react radio waves or explicitly comment on how slow laser beams are moving. We know that, a very, very long time ago (back in DB, pre-DBZ), when the main cast was young and innocent and possessing powerlevels in the low triple digits, they could move so fast in a fight that the audience in an arena had trouble following their actions. We know that SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta have base power levels around 150 million or something, and that was several explicit upgrades, some other transformations, and a bunch of training ago for both of those guys (and training in DBZ, especially for a Saiyan, means a lot.

Does this mean that SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta are one million times faster than 21st Budokai Goku, or Master Roshi? There is where it's hard to say. There is, for me, absolutely no reason to assume that powerlevel and speed scale linearly with each other. Do they scale? Sure. Linearly? Not so sure about that.

[big_adventure]

I see. So which is the weakest DBZ character that could beat Wonder Woman? At which point in the series is their durability too much for her speed, does that point exist at all? Or maybe at some point their speed matches hers?

Buu, certainly.

Pissed-off the-only-one-who-slaps-my-bitch-up-is-me SSJ Vegeta? Dude made casual-planet-buster Beerus work for it, and his speed was high enough to let him surprise the guy with snap-dodges and such.

[abmccray]

The "problem" is that DBZ stuff is both beloved and open to MASSIVE AMOUNTS of interpretation, especially with some of the semi-explicit power-scaling that goes on in the manga and the supporting materials.

So some of the people who love it (and I do enjoy it myself) are going to take the higher-end interpretations (I don't, for speed), while people who don't, er, aren't.

I don't really see it as just being "loved" or not - I see it as how people view feats, and if they favor obvious implication more than letter of the law. Also, there's a jump between people that are more used to Asian storytelling styles and mythology and those that are not (there are still a large number of people that don't understand that the characters' energy attacks are completely different and have entirely different properties, and those that don't understand that they focus the same ki into various attributes like speed/defense/strikes/blasts etc. while fighting. Even when games like Xenoverse explicitly have you constantly doing these things as a player and showing you exactly how they are conceived to work over there).

I'm actually "harder" here on series that I really like than I am more unfamiliar with or don't like - just due to familiarity, personally.

Also, there is a HUUUUUUGE gulf between people that primarily know the series from the manga, and those that know it from the anime. The anime has stuff happening verrrry slowly, regular people reacting to fights, massive inconsistencies, etc., while the manga flows completely differently.

People here that put DBZ characters at DC brick level early on don't really do it because of numerical power levels, but instead, due to feats combined with massive noted jumps, combined with other feats. Stuff like kamehamehas consistently going waaaaay outside of the atmosphere in seconds (in manga and anime) by the android saga and to the moon in seconds, and people that have proven to be able to react to those things. People being able to blitz THOSE characters, and so on and so forth. Travel speed, which is explicitly stated to be slower than reaction speed (because of them having to dump a ton of ki into it), allowing them to circle the planet multiple times. EOS characters ie. Bills, being clearly beyond light in travel. Etc.

So many combined things add up, that you see the implications and give them the basic ability as opposed to trying to argue against every single one not being 100% proven on an individual level, is basically the difference of viewpoint there.

Because of those differences in viewpoint DBZ is one of the few things that allows enough interpretation to actually have longer debates on here, as opposed to many other things which is just "known feat = speed wins" or "just too powerful for this other person to beat" and ends after a page. That's why those threads generally last for so long.

Personally, I put around Freeza level for where post crisis DC bricks don't make much difference in speed to normally get the win, and you need someone like Martian Manhunter with more esoteric powers to get the win. Freeza's planet explosion durability and significant fraction of lightspeed can absorb most of the speed difference from bricks (as their blitz-level attacks are significantly under moon busting - Superman actually has to wind up/charge for that, and moon busting is swatted away by those characters) enough to AOE them.

18 has significantly above Freeza level default durability and speed and an AOE, so she can basically easily take people like Wonder Woman, imo.

The flip side to that is that those with variable durability like most of the heroes, and especially the humans can actually be hurt by less than moon busting if they don't have the time to react and block. So if it was Krillen or Tenshinhan or something, it would be another story.

[buutenks]

Anime android 18 wins,manga loses.

Anime freeza and ssj goku are FTL.And ssj goku punched a massive ki blast fired by freeza from namek to another planet blowing it up instantly.(anime only).

18 displayed she is above these 2 in all stats.

[Pendaran]

Freeza's planet explosion durability

there was a just a gigantic, terrible thread where the notion of this ultimately came off as having a wide variety of asterisks on it.

[buutenks]

there was a just a gigantic, terrible thread where the notion of this ultimately came off as having a wide variety of asterisks on it.

Hehe,guess he forgot maybe ^^

Anyways ye that feat is very iffy IMO.Could be that freeza's natural durability,either way 18 breaking sword trunks kinda shows her durability is higher than freeza's natural durability.Ofc freeza took a fraction of the explosion,not like the whole explosion was concentrated all on freeza.But you still got to give freeza some credit since he took a powerful spirit bomb and lived with minor injuries,took a 20x kameha from goku and lived with barely any injury,so its only logical a mere planet explosion wouldnt kill him off,he even says in the manga that if he's caught in the explosion he MIGHT lose some strength,he might,so he wasnt sure it would hurt him or not.

Well,blame toriyama for not making stuff obvious like comic book writers ^^

[The Drunkard Kid]

My standard DBZ vs DC Lightspeed Brick response: If the DBZer is fast enough to even remotely rract, them they're firepower tends to fat outstrip the resistances of the DCU characters, especially in this case since Wondy hear that vulnerability to edged attacks and #18 knows the Kienzan.

[abmccray]

there was a just a gigantic, terrible thread where the notion of this ultimately came off as having a wide variety of asterisks on it.

Planet EXPLOSION durability was specifically stated as opposed to planet BUSTER durability to differentiate between being on a planet when it exploded and the variables that come with that and taking something that would blow up a planet (which he probably did as well, but that's a whole 'nother story). No further explanation really needed there.

[buutenks]

My standard DBZ vs DC Lightspeed Brick response: If the DBZer is fast enough to even remotely rract, them they're firepower tends to fat outstrip the resistances of the DCU characters, especially in this case since Wondy hear that vulnerability to edged attacks and #18 knows the Kienzan.

Hey drunk,you know that scene with quicksilver in the x men days of future past?Quicksilver was moving so fast the bullets were going(from his point of view) at a few meters per hour or something like that.Now replace the bullets with vegeta and quicksilver with berta.How fast would berta need to be to do that?

You remember that scene with vegeta throwing the db and berta moving so fast vegeta was barely moving at all,he couldnt even close his mouth fast enough before berta got the db,and flew back to his starting place.Then we got berta not even able to see goku move hehe.Id say thats pretty close to LS,considering how fast vegeta was back then.Then we got piccolo,who clearly displayed that he is much faster than berta and goku couldnt even see freeza's finger beam attack.And ssj goku is able to dodge it.

[abmccray]

Using human speed, generally, you're going something like 3 - 10X faster than someone to "disappear" from their view, depending a lot on distance and size and other things. We can see stuff way in the air that is going the speed of sound, for instance, but untrained eyes can't even follow an 80mph baseball a few feet away, so there are a lot of factors.