Post Crisis Wonder Woman vs Android 18

[buutenks]

The whole thing is being presented in the context of supporting Frieza's durability. And all of those details really don't help the performance, honestly.

I dont see how that is supporting freeza's durability.

Freeza took a kameha 20x and a genki dama and lived with minor injuries,then half dead survived a planet blowing up(again not saying he withstood the whole explosion,he just survived on a planet while it was blowing up).So id say hes definitely very durable.

[Pendaran]

I dont see how that is supporting freeza's durability.

Neither do I.

[buutenks]

Neither do I.

Oh wait no i think i see.He meant since first form freeza's blew up planet vegeta which has 10x G then goku's kameha x20 kk which is more powerful and freeza withstood that,so means he can withstand attacks that would be overkill for earth.

I dont see how this helps 18 though.

SO i read a bit through the thread,and how strong is WW,is she planet level or not?Im a bit confused and how durable?

[Pendaran]

SO i read a bit through the thread,and how strong is WW,is she planet level or not?Im a bit confused and how durable?

She's not on a scale of busting up planets and enduring that level of force, no.

[buutenks]

She's not on a scale of busting up planets and enduring that level of force, no.

I see,so 18 can win then.Though the lasso will be a problem.

[abmccray]

And do we see him do that in the manga, as compared to the anime? And, frankly, since this sort of thing came up in the last thread, the eff would that have to do with being a durability feat?

Are you even reading the thread? Hazard and I were just talking about that.

In case you may be confused, "manga" Freeza is shorthand for "canon" Freeza, to separate it from "anime" Freeza which has a bunch of nonsense filler added by the production company throughout the series that has wildly varying feats from the canon.

Toriyama, who created the canon:

- retrofitted in The Story of Bardock, which was an OAV to the manga itself (where the clip of Freeza comes from)
- wrote side stories which appear in other manga, ie. the Jako manga
- is continuing the canon story in movie/anime format, which includes Battle of Z and Yo! Goku
- has also written or consulted on Dragon Ball Online and a few other things

So, known default canon, as written by Toriyama is the manga, Yo! Goku and his Friends Return, and Battle of Z (and the upcoming Revival of F movie). What we were discussing is whether The Story of Bardock (where Freeza explosion comes from) is canon or not, as there's evidence that supports it both ways. Saying "manga" whoever, is a default shorthand for combined canon that everyone who knows this already relates to.

-------------------------

Also, no, you seemingly did not watch all of that, given that you ask "what the eff does that have to do with it being a durability feat?"

Freeza (death ball), Goku (kamhemahea), Vegeta (garlic gun/big bang attack), Buu (unnamed attack) all have noted attacks where they focus their ki (the energy that powers every attack/move that they have) into explosive energy that have or have the potential to blow up planetary structures.

To demonstrate his power, first form Freeza, vaped a planet. Vegeta, who was 4x or more powerful than Freeza was at the time he did what you saw on screen, released his most potent attack that drained all of his energy at Freeza and it did nothing. Goku, who was something like 50x more powerful or something at the time did the same (video #2), draining his energy (as noted by a person who was sensing his energy as he used it in the video I took the trouble of linking) released all of his energy in his explosive attack, and it kind of singed Freeza and annoyed him.

This is no different than someone who is stated by narratives and Reed Richards measuring him, punching out a planet, and then punching another guy and it doing nothing with those same people around measuring the energy output while he's doing it. These are noted leaps as judged by a combination of numerical figures, third parties who have the power to sense them, and shown effects on screen all at the same time. It's pretty obvious stuff.

[abmccray]

Oh wait no i think i see.He meant since first form freeza's blew up planet vegeta which has 10x G then goku's kameha x20 kk which is more powerful and freeza withstood that,so means he can withstand attacks that would be overkill for earth.

I dont see how this helps 18 though.

SSJ Trunks, who had the strength to chop through Freeza's durability and cut him up with a sword, trained for 3 years straight or something just to fight 17/18, became much much much more powerful, and broke his sword on her, among other things (her utter stomping of SSJ Vegeta and nothing he did doing much to her, her stomping of Future Trunks).

[Guy1]

Are you even reading the thread? Hazard and I were just talking about that.

In case you may be confused, "manga" Freeza is shorthand for "canon" Freeza, to separate it from "anime" Freeza which has a bunch of nonsense filler added by the production company throughout the series that has wildly varying feats from the canon.

Toriyama, who created the canon:

- retrofitted in The Story of Bardock, which was an OAV to the manga itself (where the clip of Freeza comes from)
- wrote side stories which appear in other manga, ie. the Jako manga
- is continuing the canon story in movie/anime format, which includes Battle of Z and Yo! Goku
- has also written or consulted on Dragon Ball Online and a few other things

So, known default canon, as written by Toriyama is the manga, Yo! Goku and his Friends Return, and Battle of Z (and the upcoming Revival of F movie). What we were discussing is whether The Story of Bardock (where Freeza explosion comes from) is canon or not, as there's evidence that supports it both ways. Saying "manga" whoever, is a default shorthand for combined canon that everyone who knows this already relates to.

-------------------------

Also, no, you seemingly did not watch all of that, given that you ask "what the eff does that have to do with it being a durability feat?" Freeza (death ball), Goku (kamhemahea), Vegeta (garlic gun/big bang attack), Buu (unnamed attack) all have noted attacks where they focus their ki (the energy that powers every attack/move that they have) into explosive energy that have or have the potential to blow up planetary structures. To demonstrate his power, first form Freeza, vaped a planet. Vegeta, who was 4x or more powerful than Freeza was at the time he did what you saw on screen, released his most potent attack that drained all of his energy at Freeza and it did nothing. Goku, who was something like 50x more powerful or something at the time did the same (video #2), draining his energy (as noted by a person who was sensing his energy as he used it in the video I took the trouble of linking) released all of his energy in his explosive attack, and it kind of singed Freeza and annoyed him. This is no different than someone who is stated by narratives and Reed Richards measuring him, punching out a planet, and then punching another guy and it doing nothing with those same people around measuring the energy output while he's doing it. These are noted leaps as judged by a combination of numerical figures, third parties who have the power to sense them, and shown effects on screen all at the same time. It's pretty obvious stuff.

Okay, dial it back amccray. Also, could you put that second paragraph in some spaces? It would make it a bit easier to read. Thanks.

[Pendaran]

- is continuing the canon story in movie/anime format, which includes Battle of Z and Yo! Goku

So basically when you say manga you more mean "the manga, except where I also mean the anime"

Yes, it might be confusing when you redefine the animated and printed versions to be varyingly interchangeable.

With that said, you guys sure are thus talking about a thing that doesn't seem to actually happen on panel on the printed pages of the manga then.

Alternatively, where in the manga is Frieza seen blowing up the planet?

Freeza (death ball), Goku (kamhemahea), Vegeta (garlic gun/big bang attack), Buu (unnamed attack) all have noted attacks where they focus their ki (the energy that powers every attack/move that they have) into explosive energy that have or have the potential to blow up planetary structures.

You said this:

MANGA Freeza doesn't scale from Vegeta's feat since it doesn't exist in the manga; he scales from his own and comparative feats. Since everyone puts his first form at the first showing of planet vaping, you start there, where there are basically four jumps in power with the people he fights as opposed to the 10 or so with the anime version. So he's a planet buster ++ durability person or something.

I asked where in the manga this happened.

I'll ask again.

Where in the manga did this happen, this "first planetary vaping showing". Do you have a scan of it, and if you don't, and it happened off panel, and we thus don't know how specifically how that went down, and you're thereby coming off as saying as a result that we're using the animated movie as canon for the manga, it becomes increasingly selective that the manga is manga when you say it's manga, and the anime is anime when you say it's anime.

[abmccray]

I've seen the fights. Your argument to maintain you're not saying Superman and the like bounce has now invoked "well hypothetically", which means you are now at "every time anyone in DBZ doesn't try to hyper focus their attacks and stick to smaller scale efforts, they're being raging idiots".

They don't really do that at all in the manga. And again, in this thread, I made a nice lengthy post explaining exactly why they use ki attacks or physical attacks, depending on the circumstance, and how it's normally dependent on tricking or feinting who they're fighting. Didn't you see where I pointed out that 3/4 of the villains were killed by physical attacks, with them using energy to get people who could regen, or get them where they couldn't escape?

[abmccray]

Okay, dial it back amccray. Also, could you put that second paragraph in some spaces? It would make it a bit easier to read. Thanks.

The bold was for emphasis and not yelling. Pendaran is the only person in here that is confused as to what's going on in various instances and questioning so much, and I'm bolding what's important because I have to use so much text to explain the basics of the series.

[Pendaran]

They don't really do that at all in the manga.

So, this is an argument, this focusing thing, you're only making about the anime, as far as when you say it is the anime versions? Because if so, we're right back to, if Manga Frieza's durability is held by you to be beyond planet busting, how do the various post crisis DC bricks not bounce off his face?

[abmccray]

So basically when you say manga you more mean "the manga, except where I also mean the anime"

Yes, it might be confusing when you redefine the animated and printed versions to be varyingly interchangeable.

With that said, you guys sure are thus talking about a thing that doesn't seem to actually happen on panel on the printed pages of the manga then.

Alternatively, where in the manga is Frieza seen blowing up the planet?



You said this:



I asked where in the manga this happened.

I'll ask again.

Where in the manga did this happen, this "first planetary vaping showing". Do you have a scan of it, and if you don't, and it happened off panel, and we thus don't know how specifically how that went down, and you're thereby coming off as saying as a result that we're using the animated movie as canon for the manga, it becomes increasingly selective that the manga is manga when you say it's manga, and the anime is anime when you say it's anime.

I already explained what I was referring to (canon) in the post you're responding to, and everyone else here already knew that as well. I'm not harping on semantics to try to "win" or whatever you're attempting to do in this thread, as I was strictly trying to get you on the same page in the last post. There was completely friendly discussion of opinion in this thread for the most part, and I'd rather keep it that way so that we can keep having an open discussion.

[Pendaran]

I already explained what I was referring to (canon) in the post you're responding to, and everyone else here already knew that as well. I'm not harping on semantics to try to "win" or whatever you're attempting to do in this thread, as I was strictly trying to get you on the same page in the last post. There was completely friendly discussion of opinion in this thread for the most part, and I'd rather keep it that way so that we can keep having an open discussion.

This should I think be a fairly basic question.

You're saying manga Frieza vaped a planet. Where in the manga was this shown?

[Pendaran]

More particularly, Hazard sure posts some scans of a guy with a giant space army talking about how he destroyed a planet. Unless you are saying the anime and manga and particularly in this case, the anime movie/OVA are varyingly interchangeable, that's less than Reed Richards going "I am scientifically measuring this guy's punches to be this!".