Post Crisis Wonder Woman vs Android 18

[Cody]

Frieza's soldiers were laughing at the nameks 1000 power level reading when they first showed up. They can't be THAT weak.

Do remember that it has been many many years since planet Vegeta had been destroyed. And Bardock would be about as strong as those Nameks that were being laughed at as it is highly likely that he was in the 1000's himself.

Okay, aside from that range including Piccolo then, do you think Roshi's moon busting is legitimate?

Considering he in his bulked up state and it completely drained him afterwards? Yes. He was #1 in ki control at that point and he was in a state that he couldn't really fight in as it made him relatively slow. Kind of like USSJ did with Trunks.

His base, non-buffed out state, is obviously much weaker and incapable of busting any moon.

[abmccray]

Just because someone is a certain power level doesn't mean they have a way to manipulate their ki in a way to blow stuff up. Only the best in the best in the galaxy even figured out how to make ki blasts, and then only 1 in like a gazillion figured out how to turn that ki into something more impressive than tossing a ball of energy that did as much damage as throwing a grenade. And most of those are one in a race mutants like the Ginyu squad.

Roshi took 50 years to make something that turned his spiritual energy into a giant blast that exploded ridiculously giant stuff at the end, and he was the only person on earth who figured it out, including his own students, until Goku and Krillen showed up. Outside of the turtle school only Vegeta, Freeza, a magical genie destructive thing, and the best ever Nameless Namek figured out how to do anything similar on their own. And it's that Namek that probably resulted in earth people figuring out how to manipulate more.

Also, Roshi's "buff" power isn't really known. It's completely useless in a fight as he has to stand there for like a minute in real time drawing out more ki and then gets rid of it all - and it's something pretty much entirely unique to him. It's not out of the realm of reason that sitting there for a minute grabbing temporary ki he can't hold on to and shooting it all out in a big explosion could equal what later characters could do with a bit of effort.

[Pendaran]

Do remember that it has been many many years since planet Vegeta had been destroyed. And Bardock would be about as strong as those Nameks that were being laughed at as it is highly likely that he was in the 1000's himself.




Considering he in his bulked up state and it completely drained him afterwards? Yes. He was #1 in ki control at that point and he was in a state that he couldn't really fight in as it made him relatively slow. Kind of like USSJ did with Trunks.

His base, non-buffed out state, is obviously much weaker and incapable of busting any moon.

So, you figure his buffed out state was that beyond anyone Frieza could have had with him in this off panel incident with undefined forces of 10+ years ago?

[Cody]

So, you figure his buffed out state was that beyond anyone Frieza could have had with him in this off panel incident with undefined forces of 10+ years ago?

No; I am saying they would be in that range. That is why I specifically said "Roshi-Beginning of Z Goku range of power". There could be stronger, but at most the strongest would only be just under Raditz' level of power. Otherwise Bardock would be dog food long before he got within a hundred yards of the ship.

[Pendaran]

No; I am saying they would be in that range. That is why I specifically said "Roshi-Beginning of Z Goku range of power". There could be stronger, but at most the strongest would only be just under Raditz' level of power. Otherwise Bardock would be dog food long before he got within a hundred yards of the ship.

Given that range that you yourself are putting forward, that it's off panel, that it is an undefined space army of years ago, and that we don't use things we don't see and could be otherwise spun as grounded feats, I'm pretty okay with considering this is not usable.

[Bluekey]

Hmm forgot about that,still 1+ k PL yet still cannot fire ki blasts on their own.So you really want to believe these guys can do serious damage with their hand mounted guns which were shown can only do piercing damage at best.

The troops are a moot point,since they cannot do much damage with their hand mounted cannons.

If you want ill will post scans of how powerful those guns are and how they work.

Are those guns supposed to help them fire their own ki blasts. Or do they use them because they can't.

I always figured they were just looks with no real training and couldn't channel ki.

[abmccray]

The thing here is that it wasn't the fandom or Toei that stated the multipliers. It was the Daizenshi. The guys who get their info from AT, who they interview.

Then there is the fact that SSJ makes the user far more powerful than their base forms. Even KKx20 didn't have anything on SSJ. SSJ2 added another multiplier and SSJ3 another on top of that. On top of that; Goku outright transformed into a SSJ during his fight with Beerus. Showing that it was still stronger than his base form.

Then their is the interview with Akira stating that Goku and Vegeta are training both their base and SSJ1 forms. They are no longer using ssj2 and 3, just their base and ssj1 forms. Showing that the SSJ1 form still multiplies their power.

So the transformation would still act as they always do: they make them stronger. So Goku not using his ssj form against Frieza doesn't make much sense unless there is a good reason for it.

Off topic: I sent you a PM btw.

The Daizenshuu is overrated by fans. It is an encyclopedia compiled by a staff that gets information from Toei, Toriyama, and makes a lot of other stuff up. There are interviews directly with Toriyama contained, but I don't think the power levels OR super saiyan multipliers come from a direct interview with him.

In my writeup, I meant to mention SSJ as a standard power up and the "levels" not having any use anymore, but I don't think it came across as clear.

[buutenks]

Hmm,pendaran,what would it take to convince u that freeza destroyed it himself as he said?

We know freeza's troops cannot fire ki blasts by themselves,they need hand mounted cannons,and those dont do much damage to begin with.So them being there doesnt mean much.
The only ones that could help out freeza are zarbon and dodoria and the ginyu force.But since ginyu force are called only when under pressure i doubt they were there.
So that leaves dodoria and zarbon.

Are those guns supposed to help them fire their own ki blasts. Or do they use them because they can't.

I always figured they were just looks with no real training and couldn't channel ki.

Im guessing they fire ki blasts because they cannot,since they never showed to do it without them.

Even on arrival on earth,the guy that shoots at trunks still used a hand cannon to fire.

[Cody]

Given that range that you yourself are putting forward, that it's off panel, that it is an undefined space army of years ago, and that we don't use things we don't see and could be otherwise spun as grounded feats, I'm pretty okay with considering this is not usable.

Except we know Frieza busted it. He has no reason to lie, the planet is gone, Bardock was the only guy who confronted Frieza and he was a low class warrior among Saiyans yet wasn't turned into space dust by Frieza's army. Showing that the power displayed by them wasn't very impressive. And then there are the points that ambccray just brought up which you are ignoring, and quite frankly at this point you are just refusing to accept it merely because you don't like it.

[Hazard]

Honestly, even if we say the mooks can't do big energy blast since they rely on hand cannons, it's not like Frieza's army is devoid of guy who can actually do big energy blasts.

You have Raditz at the lowest end. Kiwi is up there with Vegeta. Then Zarbon and Dodoria who could have easily kicked Saiyan Saga Vegeta's ass and all the Ginyu Force.

And of course, all the soldiers who aren't armed with hand cannons at all. Those guys? Yeah, they can most likely blast **** as much as they want.

[Cody]

The Daizenshuu is overrated by fans. It is an encyclopedia compiled by a staff that gets information from Toei, Toriyama, and makes a lot of other stuff up. There are interviews directly with Toriyama contained, but I don't think the power levels OR super saiyan multipliers come from a direct interview with him.

In my writeup, I meant to mention SSJ as a standard power up and the "levels" not having any use anymore, but I don't think it came across as clear.

The multipliers support what is seen when the forms are used and the power that they give. Making them all the more credible. But that aside, Goku still has access to the transformations and can still get a boost from them as AT said in one of his interviews. He is just going to stick to using his base and SSJ"1" form. So he can still get more powerful simply by transforming. He could basically wreck Frieza as badly as he did on Namek. If he transformed, which we know he can as AT pointed out.

So I am hoping there is a better reason than just wanting to get his base form stronger.

[abmccray]

one addendum to the current conversation - it wasn't that Freeza -said- he busted Namek in the manga, he remembered that he blew it up - as that flashback was actually his memory. So he couldn't have been lying - I mean, he could be misremembering and confused i guess.

[Pendaran]

Hmm,pendaran,what would it take to convince u that freeza destroyed it himself as he said?

For it to have actually happened on panel and not instead been what was depicted. Maybe he blew it up himself, maybe he didn't. It doesn't matter, because it's an off panel performance in the circumstances it had.

[buutenks]

Since BoG is considered canon due to mod ruling,Whis says freeza destroyed the planet vegeta.not freeza with the help of his army or with the help of his lieutenants but just freeza.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Didn't we just get past the planet busting thing?

"That is not dead, which can eternal lie.."