Post Crisis Wonder Woman vs Android 18

[buutenks]

Gohan could basically blitz Super Buu, with Super being a jump above Goku. I agree with your assessment, basically, just showing where I'm placing the exact differences.

Well yeah,pretty much i guess.

Still doesnt look good for 18 hehe.18 loses here not much u can do about it.

heh quite amusing what a huge gap is between anime and manga,just cos of some filler scenes toei decided to make while toriyama was drawing the chapters.But ironically the anime filler scenes are actually more true to their supposed PL in the show than the manga.

[abmccray]

Note that I still put 18 before WW at this point, due to speed (even my most generous speed calcs put people at like 1.4 above light in the android saga due to the most minor "how quick do you have to be to disappear from someone's eyesight calculations" starting at the beginning of DB).

The goofy part about anime is that they put a few high end feats in, but at the same time, put just as bad or worse low end feats in. Remember, the anime put in a scene where a rock was softly lobbed onto SSJ Goku, and he was in pain from it - even though he had the exact same reactions to bullets before he had anything besides Gohan training and was working mostly from natural ability.

It didn't change when the same company did GT and put him barely able to lift a building and "this guy can blow up the universe" doing block level to a planet when aiming his powerful shots at the ground.

[Pendaran]

You replied to my post as if I was focusing on him tanking a buster. The difference between a buster is the force used to explode a planet (ie. the death star beam), while surviving an explosion is being on Alderaan when it exploded. It's a HUGE difference in force due to the amount of focused force taken, with "explosion" being a variable amount based on amount of factors.

Let me say that more directly, especially acknowledging that last part makes it come off as dubious to say something like that the various post crisis characters would go bounce off Frieza.

[StupidMoniker]

Honestly, I could probably math exactly how much of the explosion Frieza took. It'd save a lot of trouble arguing.

I'm probably going to do it someday.

Just a quick and dirty calc:
surface area of the earth is roughly 120 trillion square meters
cross sectional area of a person is within an order of magnitude of 1 square meter
assuming the explosion starts at the core and radiates outward, Frieza should take on the order of 1/120,000,000,000,000 of the energy output of the exploding planet

[abmccray]

Just a quick and dirty calc:
surface area of the earth is roughly 120 trillion square meters
cross sectional area of a person is within an order of magnitude of 1 square meter
assuming the explosion starts at the core and radiates outward, Frieza should take on the order of 1/120,000,000,000,000 of the energy output of the exploding planet

It doesn't work that way because explosions are a mixture of concussive force, heat, and other stuff. And the amount of force isn't distributed evenly like that, where you can just use the size of the object to determine how much force exactly hits it.

[abmccray]

Let me say that more directly, especially acknowledging that last part makes it come off as dubious to say something like that the various post crisis characters would go bounce off Frieza.

Post Crisis characters like Superman are noted as having to charge up and gather speed/energy to bust a moon, as far as pre-board reset, when it comes to striking power. Getting off 3 or 4 hits that are under that, on a guy that is part of a torso and one arm, not blocking, and still not bothered by sitting on an exploding planet, not to mention only being annoyed by multiple planet buster ++s and swatting away moonbuster level stuff (what was mentioned in conjunction with that), isn't going to do much.

[Guy1]

Are we really doing this again?

[Hazard]

Are we really doing this again?

This one is a bit different. The previous thread relied on the argument that Frieza could tank a full out thousands of punches blitz.

abmccray believes the speed difference is way lower than that which is one interpretation. Not one I agree with, but at least the argument makes way more sense than the previous one.

As long as the thread remains as civil as it has been, it should be okay to talk about this I think.

My own take on it is assuming Frieza's blast reached the core in a second and that Namek is the same size as Earth his blast speed would be at 6,371 km/s.

Or .02 the Speed of Light.

[Guy1]

This one is a bit different. The previous thread relied on the argument that Frieza could tank a full out blitz.

abmccray believes the speed difference is way lower than that which is one interpretation. Not one I agree with, but at least the argument makes way more sense than the previous one.

My own take on it is assuming Frieza's blast reached the core in a second and that Namek is the same size as Earth his blast speed would be at 6,371 km/s.

Or .02 the Speed of Light.

Ah, alright. Just remember to keep it polite and cool guys.

[abmccray]

This one is a bit different. The previous thread relied on the argument that Frieza could tank a full out thousands of punches blitz.

abmccray believes the speed difference is way lower than that which is one interpretation. Not one I agree with, but at least the argument makes way more sense than the previous one.

As long as the thread remains as civil as it has been, it should be okay to talk about this I think.

My own take on it is assuming Frieza's blast reached the core in a second and that Namek is the same size as Earth his blast speed would be at 6,371 km/s.

Or .02 the Speed of Light.

I didn't see that thread.

However, there are only around 5 or so significant blitz jumps post Freeza to the EOS, so I'm not sure how people were jumping from being hit thousands of times blitz at Freeza saga to "nearly the same" at EOS?

Also, are we spotting him his death ball, since that's one thing that seems to be kept over all media, or does he only get his "woops blew up the planet with the core because I have no idea how to control my power and am subconsciously holding back?"

[bigseanstolemygirl29]

Using low ends, Namek's diameter is 3.5x Earth's. (not my calc)

First let's establish some things:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2898-...apter-249.html

Vegeta's power here was established to be 24,000 in the present arc and 18,000 back in the Saiyan Saga. We all know what that means.

Continuing below, Krillin and Dende take off at "top speed:"

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2909-...apter-260.html

We then get this:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2910-...apter-261.html
http://www.mangareader.net/105-2910-...apter-261.html

Although this isn't exactly the best to use for a size estimate (since Krillin obviously wasn't flying at top speed), it's somewhat telling.

Chapter 270 gives us another clue as to how big Namek is.

Gohan and Krillin had been flying very suppressed and slow to avoid Vegeta, yet flying at top speed would still take them an hour after a four day journey. Note that they changed location from their first hideout, which is where we will turn soon.

Later on in chapter 292, Gohan stated the distance to Guru's.

http://i11.mangareader.net/dragon-ba...ball-69381.jpg

These are all rather strong hints regarding Namek's size.

Yet, the real clue lies here:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2914-...apter-265.html

This is in chapter 265 after Guru unlocks some of Krillin's potential.

This is the furthest distance known in the arc. Thus it should be used as the best indicator. Krillin was stated to have a power level of around 10,000:

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2923-...apter-274.html

This of course, is lower than Saiyan Saga Vegeta's level of 18,000, but higher than base Goku's 8,000 after training with King Kai.
Goku of course, is around Mach 29 on Snake Way. Krillin after his power up on Namek would be at least that much.

Now let's crunch some numbers.

Mach 29 is 9,952.8 m/s or 9.9528 km/s.

As there are 3,600 seconds in an hour, this means that Krillin was flying at a speed of 35,830.08 kilometers per hour.

35,830.08 x 2 = 71,660.16.

Assuming that Gohan and Bulma's hideout was on the opposite side of the planet (which is actually quite a conservative assumption), it would mean that Krillin crossed half the planetary circumference.

Thus Namek's circumference would be 143,320.32 kilometers.

Using this circle and sphere calculator, inputting this circumference nets a diameter of 45620.274747024465 kilometers.

Now I'll once again turn back to an old friend of mine, the Planetary Parameter Calculator (seriously I've used this thing in so many calcs it's like family ).

Let's get the easy part out of the way first. Under any gravity the planetary volume is 4.971E+22 or 49710000000000000000000 or forty-nine sextillion, seven hundred ten quintillion m^3. This is 45.7 times larger than Earth's volume of 1,087,000,000,000,000,000,000 or one sextillion, eighty-seven quintillion m^3.

Now for the GBE.

Two things to consider here, which will give a high and low end. The low end would be assuming that Namek was only 1G due to the fact that Bulma was able to stand and walk freely on the planet. The high end would assume an equivalent density to Earth (which it is somewhat interesting to note that Namek had no real large-scale rock formations to speak of, something one would expect of planets with higher gravity than Earth).

Anyway, the low end is 1.026E+34 joules as a minimum GBE. Earth's GBE is 2.4e32 joules.

1.026E+34/2.4e32 = 42.75.

To get the higher end, we'll assume a similar density to Earth. Earth's density is about 5,501 kg/m^3.

To get a similar density, we'll divide Namek's diameter by Earth's and increase the gravity accordingly.

45620.274747024465/12,756.2 = 3.5.

Increasing the gravity by 3.5 times and you get a density of 5,383 kg/m^3, which is slightly less than Earth.

The GBE for this is 1.257E+35 joules.

1.257E+35/2.4e32 = 523.75.

Recap:

Diameter: 45620.274747024465 (3.5 times larger than Earth's)
Circumference: 143,320.32 (3.5 times larger than Earth's)
Low end (1G) planetary GBE: 42.75 times greater than Earth's.
High end (similar density) planetary GBE: 523.75 times greater than Earth's.

Either way, Namek is significantly harder to destroy than Earth.

[Hazard]

I didn't see that thread.

However, there are only around 5 or so significant blitz jumps post Freeza to the EOS, so I'm not sure how people were jumping from being hit thousands of times blitz at Freeza saga to "nearly the same" at EOS?

The being hit thousands of times and no-sell it was that particular poster's argument.

It was a pretty bad thread. Can't blame Guy1 for feeling apprehensive with this one.

Anyway, let that be all that is said about this particular topic.

Also, are we spotting him his death ball, since that's one thing that seems to be kept over all media, or does he only get his "woops blew up the planet with the core because I have no idea how to control my power and am subconsciously holding back?"

Not sure I get what you mean here.

[Hazard]

snip

Okay, first of all, don't post link to scan sites here. Seriously, better edit them out.

Second, don't just post a calc out of the blue. Especially it is not even yours.

Third, you're using Goku's snake way speed for that. Which kind of doesn't work since the snake way is a curved road and Goku flew in a straight line.

[abmccray]

Not sure I get what you mean here.

Freeza has two noted planet busters.

He has his Death Ball, which is the gigantic ball that he flings into a planet and vapes it on contact. This never appeared in the manga. However, it appeared in the original Bardock special, and given Toriyama's acknowledgment of it, seems to be something absorbed into canon. It also appears in the Trunks episode and Kai and movie canon in the Cooler movies.

He also has his unnammed little planet destroying attack that works by drilling down to the core. This is something he made in his perfect form, where he noted he had no idea how to control his energy in that form, and probably held back subconsciously so he could fight Goku a little more. This appeared in the manga.

So the question is, does he have a giant screw you sphere that he can make near instantly, or does he just have his little thing that he has to toss into the core of a planet to blow it up to create an AOE. It makes a difference on if he can create something that someone faster can't simply dodge or not let him throw in the first place.

[StupidMoniker]

It doesn't work that way because explosions are a mixture of concussive force, heat, and other stuff. And the amount of force isn't distributed evenly like that, where you can just use the size of the object to determine how much force exactly hits it.

I said it was a quick and dirty calc, not an exact number. Could the energy be distributed unevenly? Of course. Do we have any way of knowing if Freiza was in a spot that received a larger portion of the energy than the average patch of the planet? We do not. So, does he absorb exactly 1 120 trillionth of the energy of Namek exploding? Maybe, but probably not. Is it something within a few orders of magnitude of that as a top end? Almost certainly. Some of the energy may of course be lost to things like sound and visible light that are not going to be hurting Freiza, but I was ignoring that for the purpose of the calc.