Post Crisis Wonder Woman vs Android 18

[Sharpandpointies]

As one feat of which I am aware, she's capable of intercepting, lassoing, and interacting with people explicitly moving at lightspeed. She's not quite as fast as them, but she's fast enough to intercept them and lasso one of them.

She also is fast enough to react-to and block lightspeed energy blasts/bolts/projectiles with her bracers.

'Significant Fraction of Lightspeed' covers it from where I stand. :) Mileage may vary.

[abmccray]

So again, what you're basically saying is that be it post Crisis Superman or post Crisis Wonder Woman, they should just straight up bounce off Frieza even with "charge up time"?

Planet + level attacks annoy/scortch him at best (see above for multiple feats to this nature). It took a real-time multiple minute charged genki dama gathering the life force of everything around to give him any serious pain, at 50% power.

Moon-ish level attacks get slapped away.

Where do you think Post Crisis attacks stand in relation to this?

[buutenks]

As one feat of which I am aware, she's capable of intercepting, lassoing, and interacting with people explicitly moving at lightspeed. She's not quite as fast as them, but she's fast enough to intercept them and lasso one of them.

She also is fast enough to react-to and block lightspeed energy blasts/bolts/projectiles with her bracers.

'Significant Fraction of Lightspeed' covers it from where I stand. Mileage may vary.

I see,that kinda changes things,cos i think shes more of a can react to fast people instead of blitzing them at same speed or higher.Well i could maybe she doesnt speed blitz 18.Im guessing this WW has planet level strength eh?

So i guess this depends how fast 18 would be ^^.Can she fight with WW or not based off of feats.

Best feat i can thing of is freeza blocking the kkx20 kameha with his hand before it hits him,him outrunning ssj goku's kameh and ssj goku dodging freeza's finger beam,same beam which when freeza used it as a whip instantly created a rift in the planet.We got 2 instances of energy attack performing at perhaps LS or very close,name roshi and piccolo feat,and we got freeza's blast which he fired on namek instantly reaching the core of the planet.18 is faster than all those.So what do u think?

[Sharpandpointies]

I see,that kinda changes things,cos i think shes more of a can react to fast people instead of blitzing them at same speed or higher.Well i could maybe she doesnt speed blitz 18.Im guessing this WW has planet level strength eh?

She does, on occasion, speedblitz as well. Depends on the writer.

But really, intercepting and lassoing people moving/reacting at lightspeed is, essentially, a blitz-worthy feat against people slower than Wonder Woman herself.

As for planet-level strength, not really. She's a strong Class 100, but she's not busting any planets with one hit.

[buutenks]

She does, on occasion, speedblitz as well. Depends on the writer.

But really, intercepting and lassoing people moving/reacting at lightspeed is, essentially, a blitz-worthy feat against people slower than Wonder Woman herself.

As for planet-level strength, not really. She's a strong Class 100, but she's not busting any planets with one hit.

Ah,well ye i guess it all comes down to how fast people think 18 could be or is.

As i wrote above what u think of that?

[Sharpandpointies]

I'm just clarifying some stuff about Wonder Woman. Honestly, I don't know a lot about DBZ - I figure one has to really know the whole shebang to get any kind of feeling for the actual power levels.

So I stay out of DBZ debates. :)

[buutenks]

I'm just clarifying some stuff about Wonder Woman. Honestly, I don't know a lot about DBZ - I figure one has to really know the whole shebang to get any kind of feeling for the actual power levels.

So I stay out of DBZ debates.

Ah ^^ Ye i guess u need to know it from 0 to end.But really its not power levels,u can ignore that,its just characters showing in the manga or anime that they are faster and stronger and more durable than everyone previously shown.Like 18,she showed she is superior to both trunks and ssj vegeta,who at that time was much stronger/faster etc than ssj goku who fought freeza,people even state trunks who easily defeated freeza got koed and so on.Vegeta got his arm broken with one kick from 18,while a weaker ssj goku was being rammed into islands,hit with atatcks that could cause rift in the planet and so on and wasnt injured at all.SO u get a sense of just how much more powerful 18 is.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Honestly I feel there needs to be a level of differentiation with the way they take "ki" attacks to how they take physical blows. If they can slap away attacks that'd otherwise blow up a planet, but get messed the hell up in a punch fest by punches/kicks etc that aren't anywhere close AFAIK (at least until Bills does the whole "Fly through planets destroying them in the process" thing), really kinda seems ... off.

[abmccray]

Honestly I feel there needs to be a level of differentiation with the way they take "ki" attacks to how they take physical blows. If they can slap away attacks that'd otherwise blow up a planet, but get messed the hell up in a punch fest by punches/kicks etc that aren't anywhere close AFAIK (at least until Bills does the whole "Fly through planets destroying them in the process" thing), really kinda seems ... off.

See the DBZ feat thread. It's explained multiple times in the series that they basically charge and move their ki to attack/block/blast/speed, and do it on the fly. So, if they have a hypothetical 80 units of ki, they can spread it out as 20/20/20/20 or they could do 0/0/0/100, with it needing to be powered back up as it drains as they put it into stuff in general. As they get stronger and stronger, they get more "units" and thus doing a kamehameha that "drains 20" when weaker, won't drain as much out of them when they have 1000 "units" to work with as opposed to 80 or whatever. That's the best way to think about what they're constantly doing on the show/series.

There were multiple instances in Dragon Ball where it literally shows them drawing their ki into their kicks/punches and then hitting people (Gohan on Radditz, Nappa on Tien, for obvious examples), or putting it into defense before taking an attack. It's also stated that when they use it to power their long distance speed, it drains them extremely quickly as well.

Also, characters like Piccolo and Cell have to devote a whole lot of that energy to healing, and get drained ridiculously from that.

That's also what's different with some characters. Freeza has no idea of what he's doing and basically kind of keeps his ridiculous power in a base spread all of the time. The androids aren't using ki, but have extremely durable bodies and are working from an unlimited energy source or suck the energy out of other people to use (cyborgs like 17/18 seem to mix the two and Cell is ki/biological). Buu also basically draws from some kind of magical unlimited source that allows him to never really drain from anything.

edit: Also that's why the humans to a large degree, and the Saiyans, to a lesser degree, can easily be hurt by things once drained or KOed. Saiyans have some default durability, but humans are "regular" when not putting ki into their defense, for instance.

The last movie had Goku accessing "god ki," which is an entirely different, more potent form of energy that he learns to access, that is preferable to the standard life energy regular ki is.

[buutenks]

Honestly I feel there needs to be a level of differentiation with the way they take "ki" attacks to how they take physical blows. If they can slap away attacks that'd otherwise blow up a planet, but get messed the hell up in a punch fest by punches/kicks etc that aren't anywhere close AFAIK (at least until Bills does the whole "Fly through planets destroying them in the process" thing), really kinda seems ... off.

They dont slap away attacks that blow up a planet,they tend to get hit by them and survive,but mostly that was freeza,passed that no one did the tank massive energy attack.Only time someone tanked besides freeza without getting injured was ssj3 goku tanking a kameha from kid buu,considering ssj 3 goku can shake the entire earth just by powering up,id say ye his body is easily that durable.

Also here are some scans of 2 nice little feats,while not on a planetary scale still impressive if u think a bit about it.

ssj goku vs freeza first:
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/7496/0DTXAe.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/3866/zF1FeR.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img908/1938/vSOekl.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/4561/2zLuDN.jpg

Goku,got pushed hard into the ocean there,with him being uninjured from it,just his shirt got a bit destroyed.He was already that bloodied before he was pushed so ye.


http://imageshack.com/a/img538/8944/ydufEa.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img912/2779/LVLoJF.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img540/8600/crZYMS.jpg

Goku here doesnt even feel that mesa behind him as he is ripping it in half.

And here
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/5614/UwKLMd.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/9513/KCFObL.jpg

Goku taking freeza's finger beam and barely causes his lip to bleed

Here is what freeza can do with that said beam
http://imageshack.com/a/img909/2826/gydOgT.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/5480/GRn7Ug.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/6241/gBWGXl.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img540/3327/IzSQNQ.jpg

Caued a rift in the planet,then barely makes goku's lip bleed.

[abmccray]

Also, as a side note, reports from the latest Jump! issue state that Beerus is the first confirmed (casual) star buster, as he apparently casually busts two suns due to tossing blasts on reaction at Goku and Vegeta for waking him up. Whis apparently has some time control and can reverse the state of things to their former state, which he often does according to Whis' tantrums. This will be verified in a week or two.

[buutenks]

Also, as a side note, reports from the latest Jump! issue state that Beerus is the first confirmed (casual) star buster, as he apparently casually busts two suns due to tossing blasts on reaction at Goku and Vegeta for waking him up. Whis apparently has some time control and can reverse the state of things to their former state, which he often does according to Whis' tantrums. This will be verified in a week or two.

Oh cool,hehe.

Yep,seems beersu destroyed 2 suns due to a tantrum while being a sleep lol.

[Farealmer]

Honestly I feel there needs to be a level of differentiation with the way they take "ki" attacks to how they take physical blows. If they can slap away attacks that'd otherwise blow up a planet, but get messed the hell up in a punch fest by punches/kicks etc that aren't anywhere close AFAIK (at least until Bills does the whole "Fly through planets destroying them in the process" thing), really kinda seems ... off.

Except the characters are using said Ki to amp their physical stats. Are we simply to assume they can only put a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of their total power(which is contained in their body) into their limbs? The compartmentalized durability is fine for Wonder Woman(where it's a specifically stated thing for her) but every attempt to do so with DBZ comes off(to me) as just trying to be nit picky. Because it isn't done anywhere else unless it's flat out stated.

Fictional characters with "busting" force are allowed here all the time even when they themselves have never directly done so. To say nothing of the people who don't bust the city/country/planet every time they hit the ground even when fighting serious. Many people have commented on the forum how unrealistic punching out planets is, so it it right to punish DBZ for following that(despite the series other qualities)? Beerus is a notable exception but he specifically flew through them. He didn't bust Earth with a physical hit as a side effect of fighting Goku or the others despite clearly having that level of strength. No other character in DBZ flew through a planet like that. Beerus only did so by accident.

While I'am not nearly enough of an expert on DBZ to argue them specifically. I feel this issue is one that needs to get addressed for DBZ before any meaningful discussion on DBZ can take place. As it always degrades to the "compartmentalized durability" argument or a variation thereof. For the record I myself don't really think their physical attacks are entirely equal to their energy ones(or why bother using them most of the time) but the level of difference here would need to be in the trillions for that argument to hold water. And I personally cannot accept Goku's punches being 1,000,000,000,000 times weaker than his energy blasts.

[abmccray]

For the record I myself don't really think they physical attacks are entirely equal to their energy ones(or why bother using them most of the time)

It's because they are trying to actually hit their opponents, so they try and come up with creative ways of doing so. They develop strategic types of energy attacks to try to get around their opponents' speed and durability.

So, for instance, instead of putting all their ki into physical amping and letting a giant telegraphed haymaker fly. which could easily be dodged or something, they shoot a blast at the speed of relativity that explodes at a certain point.

Once characters started getting faster than those blasts, they got more creative with them. Goku "hid" when throwing a kamehameha at Freeza so he couldn't see it coming and dodge it, there were teleport kamehamehas, characters purposely aimed them at the planet so that the heroes couldn't just move out of the way, etc.

They also started fighting people that wouldn't die from hitting vitals and had to use larger, explosive blasts that would obliterate the entire body. Pre-that, people were getting their arms punched off, punched through their stomachs and hearts, etc.

It's simply a best tool for the job at hand situation. It's just that across the Internet, most people that talk about compartmentalized ki don't understand how ki actually works, although we at least now have a very popular game that shows exactly that, now, at least.

edit: Even late, there were still times when physical attacks were used, normally to show superiority. For instance, since Gohan had such a huge jump in stats with SSJ2, he could zoom over to Cell and punch the 18 out of him with an amped punch before he could even react.

[buutenks]

Except the characters are using said Ki to amp their physical stats. Are we simply to assume they can only put a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of their total power(which is contained in their body) into their limbs? The compartmentalized durability is fine for Wonder Woman(where it's a specifically stated thing for her) but every attempt to do so with DBZ comes off(to me) as just trying to be nit picky. Because it isn't done anywhere else unless it's flat out stated.

Fictional characters with "busting" force are allowed here all the time even when they themselves have never directly done so. To say nothing of the people who don't bust the city/country/planet every time they hit the ground even when fighting serious. Many people have commented on the forum how unrealistic punching out planets is, so it it right to punish DBZ for following that(despite the series other qualities)? Beerus is a notable exception but he specifically flew through them. He didn't bust Earth with a physical hit as a side effect of fighting Goku or the others despite clearly having that level of strength. No other character in DBZ flew through a planet like that. Beerus only did so by accident.

While I'am not nearly enough of an expert on DBZ to argue them specifically. I feel this issue is one that needs to get addressed for DBZ before any meaningful discussion on DBZ can take place. As it always degrades to the "compartmentalized durability" argument or a variation thereof. For the record I myself don't really think their physical attacks are entirely equal to their energy ones(or why bother using them most of the time) but the level of difference here would need to be in the trillions for that argument to hold water. And I personally cannot accept Goku's punches being 1,000,000,000,000 times weaker than his energy blasts.

They are not,while their punches and kicks are much weaker then their massive charged up attacks,its not that huge of a difference.Plus as i showed above,an small attack which casued a rift in the planet barelymade goku's lip bleed.And goku being pushed hard into the planet enough to cause a huge explosion,u can even see the curvature of namek,so that impact was massive and goku is unharmed,just his shirt got a bit destroyed,and this was no ki attack,simply him impacting the ocean.