How Does WW's Current Power Level Stack Up With Superman?

[brettc1]

What are your thoughts on Superman's power level not resetting to "beginner" after he's been drained of all his solar energy? For example, in SM/WW he was weakened by Zod and took a nuke to the face. He had zero solar energy reserves after that.


Then when he received enough sunlight to get healthy his powers were at the level they were just before Zod and the nuke, not back in the early days of Action Comics.

Yeah, it doesn't seem to make any sense, I agree.

The only logical explanation I can offer in terms of the actual story is that its not just his strength and sensory and super-crossword solving powers that evolve over time, but his ability to process solar energy as well.

What that means is that the reason he is not fully powered as a boy is not because he has had less time to process the suns energy, but that his body is actually physically not able to process it to the same potential as he can as an adult. His upper limit as a boy is vastly less than as a man.

So when he starts to recharge after the nuke, he does so faster than as a youth, and to a much greater upper limit.

Plus - he gets recharged at the fortress by machines which make the accelerate the process.

Of course the real reason is that folks don't want years of Superman stories where he works his way back up.

[Raiden]

A lot of WW's villains supposedly lame villains have not turned up either.

Is that a bad thing? Superman didn't become top tier powerhouse by fighting livewire, metallo, prankster and toyman.

I seem to recall in No Mans Land Penguin played a big role. Riddlers appearance shows just be cues some folks think a character is lame doesn't mean he can't stand out. Personally I thought Riddler was one of the stand villains in the animated show The Batman.

Penguins has always been sort of guy who gets bullied by new villain. He only exists to show how cowardly some criminals can be. Playing a significant part is not same as pulling the strings.

Mxyzptlk is, by you own analysis, proof that the characters appearance can be secondary to their abilities. For sheer villainy and depth of character Psycho boots Mxy all the way back to the 5th Dimension.

Not even going to bother with this, after all, why argue when someone is so blind to see the concept behind psycho sand Mxy.

[Superlad93]

It seems to me that different writers look at the subject in a different ways, since it looked like he was really flying to me in the first arc of JL, when trying to avoid the omega beam, he wasn't jumping, and he was moving almost at Flash's speed while flying, so...I'd say it is an inconsistency rather than a half truth on his part.

Nope. Wouldn't you say this looks like flying?



Wouldn't you say this is VERY fast? He rebuilt that whole apartment building in minutes.




We've got no idea how fast the Flash was back then. He'd just gotten his powers roughly a few months ago. He says no one has ever been able to tag him because he's never faced anyone with real super speed.

This is also a point made that if Superman keeps "pushing" his powers then they grow to accommodate him. Then there is the other idea that Superman reached new heights in power because he had previously not needed to break the speed of sound when fight gangsters and wife beaters.



This is still the same young man who got knocked out by a train going 200mph, shocked till his skin burned, and didn't like the feel of bullets. This same young man is the who was fighting Darkseid.

I guess it depends on what the writers will want to do.

Nah Morrison and Johns were roughly the same. He fought Darkseid with indestructible armor and ran for his life when the omega beams chased him. He pushed his power as far as it would go during his younger years but that doesn't change that it was still the kid from Action comics #1 just a month later. This is in great contrast to the start of Lobdells run and Action comics #14 where he races to Mars in seconds and fights the Kryptonian Xa-Du all the way back to Earth from Mars.

It can be that his powers will continue to grow constantly, or it can still be that they won't increase as fast as in the early years forever, and that one day he will reach a limit. The fact that Wraith has not reached it, doesn't mean it couldn't exist, if the writers will want it to.

I have no reason to believe that it will end. I have much more reason to think it will go on. It's a simple as that. They man's cells don't decay meaning they remain effective and if they remain effective then their function of drawing in power and growing will continue till he takes them from that power source.

Anyway, I don't think we will ever see this.
It's more probable that we will see his powers continue to fluctuate just like we have till now: one time he lifts Earth without any problems, than the next one he needs help to lift an aircraft carrier, or he struggles to lift a ship.

Unfortunately that's the case for all heroes at Superman's power in comics. It makes more sense to think that the artist just make him look stressed fro dramatic effect. It's not like he said "oh goodness Wonder Woman this thing is too heavy could I get some help?". Nah, you've got too strong characters why not use them at the same time. In Fact he's actually never said ANYTHING is too heavy for him. Even when he was lifting the Earth. In fact he says "I could do more".

So I just suspend my disbelief a bit and think "maybe he's trying to keep it together more than lift it and that's the hard part".

When Wonder Woman states that, she does to make a point to Supergirl (or at least that's how I read it), since shortly before she states also that strength doesn't come just with powers, but with skills too, and also with knowing your enemy, and that Supergirl was fighting like a child. In the first part of the fight Diana doesn't attack...she takes her punch, deflects her heat vision, and then avoid her blows and finally catches Supergirl in her lasso.
So sure...the greatest difference between the two was the training, while in strength and speed they were closely matched. Closely matched doesn't mean they were the same, though. She should have said "we have the same strength and speed", instead, for it to be so.

I agree. I'm gonna say she's probably a bit stronger and faster.

Maybe he is really the highest "concentrate of raw power" on Earth (I like this definition of Lex better), but the "strongest being" in the galaxy seems quite false, though, since for example H'el was stronger than him, wasn't he? xD

1. Being the PHYSICAL strongest doesn't mean that beings with reality warping powers, magic, energy manipulation, and other powers can't be more or just as powerful "powerful". Simply because he can lift the most and output the most physical force doesn't mean he can't be beat.

2. Lex basically tells Superman in issue 17 of the Superman book that he probably could reach He'l's level but he holds himself back from actively looking for that kind of power. He says to Superman that deep down inside he feels that he could have gotten their and beyond. So Lex can still be quite right about his assessment in Doomed.

3. Also (and this is the big thing) He'l is gone by the time Doomed #1 is going on. He and Krypton are stuck in a time loop flickering in and out of reality. So Lex could be very right. The only thing he was sure about was that he was the most powerful on the planet.

Anyway, yes...it makes more sense to compare Kryptonians in that way.

This is the only point I was making before this.

[BlackFeath]

Nope. Wouldn't you say this looks like flying?

Not quite. There it is clear he touches the ground and jump, here, on the other hand, he is on air for all the time, and he even changes direction while on air, so this I call flying, what you posted is jumping and running:

Unfortunately that's the case for all heroes at Superman's power in comics. It makes more sense to think that the artist just make him look stressed fro dramatic effect. It's not like he said "oh goodness Wonder Woman this thing is too heavy could I get some help?". Nah, you've got too strong characters why not use them at the same time. In Fact he's actually never said ANYTHING is too heavy for him. Even when he was lifting the Earth. In fact he says "I could do more".

So I just suspend my disbelief a bit and think "maybe he's trying to keep it together more than lift it and that's the hard part".

It wasn't just that time with Wonder Woman, also in Superman/Wonder Woman he struggled alone to lift a ship. Artistic license? Maybe. That or it is an inconsistency. Anyway, in general writers will make him, just like all the other heroes, as strong as they need him to be for their story.

[Superlad93]

Not quite. There it is clear he touches the ground and jump, here, on the other hand, he is on air for all the time, and he even changes direction while on air, so this I call flying, what you posted is jumping and running:

Nope. The only difference between the two situations is what he needs to do while in the air. Take a look at him while he's picking up the construction equipment, you can clearly see an arc in his flying as he flys it from one spot to another. That takes a rather consistent propelling force to do. The man only weighs around 250 lbs I think. So if it were a jump the weight distribution would be way too off to make sense. There is constant force keeping him and the equipment up right in the air. Or take a look at him by the side of the building. You can see dust around his hands as he fixes the building meaning he'd have to hover in place to do so.

In the JL pick the situation is WAY different and much more urgent. If he touches the ground he's slow down. There is literally no need to stop his flight and hit the ground like in Action comics where he was picking stuff up to fix the building. Before this we see that he STARTS OFF IN A RUN before he flys......it's a splash page actually.



This indicates a "lift off" or "jumping start" is needed before he can fly. But when he's in the air he can do what he wants for the most part.



In the picture above he is shown floating as he speaks to Batman. He speaks and lets Batman speak for the length of THREE word balloons and then he even speaks after, and he still remains in the air. In this same issue he says (like the next page actually) "it's a half jump half fly". This is Action comics #11

In fact take a close look at the last panel. You can see Superman floating above the city. His feet a BEFORE the edge of the roof where Batman his skulking. He's very clearly hovering the whole time.

It can then simply be said that Superman only needs the momentum of a jump to put him in the air but can then more or less fly after the fact. The continuity is there. It was the same Superman as the one who jumped into space and got KO'd by the train.

It wasn't just that time with Wonder Woman, also in Superman/Wonder Woman he struggled alone to lift a ship. Artistic license? Maybe. That or it is an inconsistency. Anyway, in general writers will make him, just like all the other heroes, as strong as they need him to be for their story.

Artistic license. He still wasn't saying "goodness this is really heavy I can hardly lift this". But I don't really care about nit picks in that manner so long as the continuity of him being the strongest is upheld as it has been.

[BlackFeath]

Nope. The only difference between the two situations is what he needs to do while in the air. Take a look at him while he's picking up the construction equipment, you can clearly see an arc in his flying as he flys it from one spot to another. That takes a rather consistent propelling force to do. The man only weighs around 250 lbs I think. So if it were a jump the weight distribution would be way too off to make sense.

Doesn't seem so to me. Due to gravity, it's normal he describes an arc when he jumps, in JL instead he doesn't touch the ground and he changes direction, he doesn't simply describe an arc due to gravity force.

There is constant force keeping him and the equipment up right in the air. Or take a look at him by the side of the building. You can see dust around his hands as he fixes the building meaning he'd have to hover in place to do so.

Well, I could explain in two ways that fact:
1) he moves his hand fast enough that in the short time in which he is in air, before he falls, he can still work.

2) he was already hovering, that means he could already almost fly, maybe he couldn't simply fly fast, or he couldn't stay too much in air. That is anyway different from what we saw in JL.

In the JL pick the situation is WAY different and much more urgent. If he touches the ground he's slow down. There is literally no need to stop his flight and hit the ground like in Action comics where he was picking stuff up to fix the building. Before this we see that he STARTS OFF IN A RUN before he flys......it's a splash page actually.



This indicates a "lift off" or "jumping start" is needed before he can fly. But when he's in the air he can do what he wants for the most part.

So he can fly. It is not a matter of 'having not enough time'. If he couldn't fly, he would have had to touch the ground, that the situations was urgent or that it wasn't. Stay in the air without touching the ground, moving fast and being also capable of changing direction...that I call flying xD And anyway, from that page it seems that it is Flash who is pushing him, hence the 'start off in a run', Flash reacted faster and made him move. But it doesn't matter. Moving in the air even for great distances without touching the ground = flying.

In the picture above he is shown floating as he speaks to Batman. He speaks and lets Batman speak for the length of THREE word balloons and then he even speaks after, and he still remains in the air. In this same issue he says (like the next page actually) "it's a half jump half fly". This is Action comics #11

In fact take a close look at the last panel. You can see Superman floating above the city. His feet a BEFORE the edge of the roof where Batman his skulking. He's very clearly hovering the whole time.

It can then simply be said that Superman only needs the momentum of a jump to put him in the air but can then more or less fly after the fact. The continuity is there. It was the same Superman as the one who jumped into space and got KO'd by the train.

So, he can hover. He tell Batman he can half jump half fly, but in certain situations he had been able to simply fly before this, and he has also told GL he could fly into space. That's an inconsistency for me. In Action Comics he couldn't still completely fly, while in Justice League yes. Two different writers, two different interpretations.

Anyway, at this point I think we can agree to disagree.

[AmiMizuno]

It terms of martial arts and fight skills where would u rank Wonder Woman?

[dupersuper]

In Action Comics he couldn't still completely fly, while in Justice League yes. Two different writers, two different interpretations.

More like two different stories months apart while Superman powers have been developing...

[BlackFeath]

More like two different stories months apart while Superman powers have been developing...

Since there was an issue in action comics where Superlad said Superman couldn't still fly that was placed in continuity after the events in Justice League where he could instead fly, that's not developing... First he couldn't, then he could, then he couldn't again => inconsistency: powers fluctuating.

[brettc1]

Not even going to bother with this, after all, why argue when someone is so blind to see the concept behind psycho sand Mxy.

Psycho represents misogyny taken to a truly evil extreme.

Mxyzptlk represents Elmer Fudd with magic.

[Prime]

We'll she was able to hold her own against both Faora and Zod, when Superman wasn't able to. Plus she is going to kick his ass in a couple of months.

[brettc1]

We'll she was able to hold her own against both Faora and Zod, when Superman wasn't able to. Plus she is going to kick his ass in a couple of months.

Perhaps. Assuming (a) she wins by herself and (b) his mutation does not compromise his Kryptonian power levels or (c) we don't learn that he was subconsciously holding back.

It sounds cynical I know, but I believe there is a long history of Superman losing a fight being attributed after the fact to some unique circumstance that resulted in an unfair contest. Especially when it's against another hero.

[Superlad93]

Doesn't seem so to me. Due to gravity, it's normal he describes an arc when he jumps, in JL instead he doesn't touch the ground and he changes direction, he doesn't simply describe an arc due to gravity force.



Well, I could explain in two ways that fact:
1) he moves his hand fast enough that in the short time in which he is in air, before he falls, he can still work.

2) he was already hovering, that means he could already almost fly, maybe he couldn't simply fly fast, or he couldn't stay too much in air. That is anyway different from what we saw in JL.



So he can fly. It is not a matter of 'having not enough time'. If he couldn't fly, he would have had to touch the ground, that the situations was urgent or that it wasn't. Stay in the air without touching the ground, moving fast and being also capable of changing direction...that I call flying xD And anyway, from that page it seems that it is Flash who is pushing him, hence the 'start off in a run', Flash reacted faster and made him move. But it doesn't matter. Moving in the air even for great distances without touching the ground = flying.

So, he can hover. He tell Batman he can half jump half fly, but in certain situations he had been able to simply fly before this, and he has also told GL he could fly into space. That's an inconsistency for me. In Action Comics he couldn't still completely fly, while in Justice League yes. Two different writers, two different interpretations.

Anyway, at this point I think we can agree to disagree.

Obviously it's called flying but neither I or Superman are saying anything else. What I'm pointing out is he needed momentum of some sort to take off. This is why he hops or jumps before he is properly flying. After the initial boost of momentum it's all up to concentration or whatever internal workings also him to stay up in the air.

To break it down as simple as possible: Once he has JUMPED into the air he then begins to fly.

This flight is unlike the control he has over his later flight were he can just levitate into the air and take off at any speed with out the need to push off. There is nothing in the JL book that he did that contradicts this or anything Superman said in Action comics.

Again he said "I can fly into space". He's not lying. Once he jumps from the ground it becomes flying. We see him fly into space at the end of Action comics #8. It would have sound very awkward to say "I can jump-fly into space". It would have been the truth, but essentially so was what he said to GL in the book anyway. The thing that lets him get into space is his flying after a jump. I know this for a fact because in Action comcis #7 he needed a ramp to jump off and he need to hit 25,000mph, but at the end of #8 all he does is jump a few feet into the air and then he flys the rest of the way there. It's flying. Just not as good as it will be.

No contradictions that can't be explained.

Getting back to my main and only point: it was the same Superman. This is cannon. Action Comics #10 happens after JL's first arc. Everything is spelled out clear as day in that book. It's cannon. It's the same Superman as the one in Action #1. It clearly shows that his powers are significantly less than what they will be after 5 years. We're shown this and given evidence for this. Then with the power speculation and studies done byClark himself, Shy, Lex, and Wraith were are told that his power is still growing. We are NEVER given an indication that a limit will be reached. Could there be one? Sure. But I have NO reason to think there is one given all I have put in front of me.

[Superlad93]

Since there was an issue in action comics where Superlad said Superman couldn't still fly that was placed in continuity after the events in Justice League where he could instead fly, that's not developing... First he couldn't, then he could, then he couldn't again => inconsistency: powers fluctuating.

Again he could fly, he just needed a jumping start to get in the air. This is still flying. He is still changing directions and putting on and taking off momentum. The big difference is that he's not as precise, controlled, and fast as he will be in five years time. Once that initial jump into the air is achieved he "catches" him self with his power to fly and then he's off and flying.

If you'd like to call inconsistency then that fine, but you will have to acknowledge that it was the same young man from the Action comics #1 who got hit by the train. Action Comics #10 clearly takes place after JL #6 and it clearly clears up the canon thus explaining Superman's level at the time.

Perhaps. Assuming (a) she wins by herself and (b) his mutation does not compromise his Kryptonian power levels or (c) we don't learn that he was subconsciously holding back.

It sounds cynical I know, but I believe there is a long history of Superman losing a fight being attributed after the fact to some unique circumstance that resulted in an unfair contest. Especially when it's against another hero.

That's usually the case with Superman. I imagine this will go along the same lines or it wont be her an the JL who stop him. In one of the solicitations it said that they were looking at the Phantom Zone for their as the only option they had left. This seems to imply they couldn't subdue him normally.

[BlackFeath]

Again he could fly, he just needed a jumping start to get in the air. This is still flying. He is still changing directions and putting on and taking off momentum. The big difference is that he's not as precise, controlled, and fast as he will be in five years time. Once that initial jump into the air is achieved he "catches" him self with his power to fly and then he's off and flying.

If you'd like to call inconsistency then that fine, but you will have to acknowledge that it was the same young man from the Action comics #1 who got hit by the train. Action Comics #10 clearly takes place after JL #6 and it clearly clears up the canon thus explaining Superman's level at the time.



That's usually the case with Superman. I imagine this will go along the same lines or it wont be her an the JL who stop him. In one of the solicitations it said that they were looking at the Phantom Zone for their as the only option they had left. This seems to imply they couldn't subdue him normally.

Ok, so he could fly with a head start... don't know why we started this discussion, then...
I never said that his powers would have stopped to increase certainly, but that the fact they are increasing now doesn't mean they will surely grow forever, or that they are growing now as fast as they were before. It depends on what the writers will do.

Anyway...there will probably be some explanations, but I guess the Phantom zone could simply be the only way to subdue him without having to kill him. I wonder if after this transformation kryptonite continues to affect him or not. I don't think they will use it to subdue him, though. Maybe they will try but something will happen, like in Sacrifice. Anyway, it seems from the last issue of Superman that

spoilers:

the doomsday effect has already started but they found a way not to make it affects what it is near him...if it will continue to work.

end of spoilers

There was a note, though, that said that this issue takes place after Superman/Wonder Woman 9...is it a mistake or not? It seems strange to me, since already in Batman/Superman Clark was in the lab... Maybe they both take place after Superman/Wonder Woman 9 too? So...at this point a first 'battle' has already taken place, but we will have to wait for the next month to see it.