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  1. #1
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    Default The Wrong Side Won: Spider-Man Vs. Firelord

    CSBG kicks off a new feature spotlighting notable comic book fights where the "wrong" side won, starting with the infamous Spider-Man vs. Firelord battle of 1985.



    Full article here.

  2. #2
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    Yeah that fight doesnt make much sense now that we know the symbiotes weaknesses. Ive seen venom act scared of a lighter. Between all the explosions, and the fact that the guy projects fire, firelord should have put up a better fight.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Man24 View Post
    Yeah that fight doesnt make much sense now that we know the symbiotes weaknesses. Ive seen venom act scared of a lighter. Between all the explosions, and the fact that the guy projects fire, firelord should have put up a better fight.
    He wasn't wearing the symbiote.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    I think you can make the argument that Firelord was already weakened by the implosion and the explosion, which is why Spidey was able to take him.

    It might be a stretch, but I'll buy it, because I love how that fight turned out. And Frenz's layouts are indeed brilliant there. Even if it's just a sleight of hand trick (and aren't all fictional throwdowns?), he really sells you on Spidey winning. He draws your attention to Spidey's relentless jumping and punching and we don't see Firelord's reaction, then we pull out and the battle's already over.

    I don't want to see Spidey kicking a herald's ass every week, but this one? I'd say the right side won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I think you can make the argument that Firelord was already weakened by the implosion and the explosion, which is why Spidey was able to take him.

    It might be a stretch, but I'll buy it, because I love how that fight turned out. And Frenz's layouts are indeed brilliant there. Even if it's just a sleight of hand trick (and aren't all fictional throwdowns?), he really sells you on Spidey winning. He draws your attention to Spidey's relentless jumping and punching and we don't see Firelord's reaction, then we pull out and the battle's already over.

    I don't want to see Spidey kicking a herald's ass every week, but this one? I'd say the right side won.
    Plus it didn't become a re-occuring thing unlike some of Batman's victories.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    yeah i'm fine with this, because, while there might be practical problems with spidey winning, it works perfectly thematically.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I think you can make the argument that Firelord was already weakened by the implosion and the explosion, which is why Spidey was able to take him.

    It might be a stretch, but I'll buy it, because I love how that fight turned out. And Frenz's layouts are indeed brilliant there. Even if it's just a sleight of hand trick (and aren't all fictional throwdowns?), he really sells you on Spidey winning. He draws your attention to Spidey's relentless jumping and punching and we don't see Firelord's reaction, then we pull out and the battle's already over.

    I don't want to see Spidey kicking a herald's ass every week, but this one? I'd say the right side won.
    Well said! Let me just add anyone wanting to nit-pick on the improbability of this fight going Spidey's way really needs to first question why any fight with the Kingpin was not over with a single punch landed to Fisk's fat head. Or many other villains who did not have super-strength, including Ock----theoretically, once you got past his arms, a single punch should have taken him out. Ah, the belief we must suspend if we are to enjoy a good comic!
    I miss Kevin Nichols. Not as much as bacon, but still...

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Plus it didn't become a re-occuring thing unlike some of Batman's victories.
    Batman's a different character, and quite honestly, he should ALWAYS win.

    Spidey's a bit trickier, in that he's all about potential, and he should occasionally pull off some stuff that amazes everyone, himself included.

    Simply put, he's the kind of guy who can take Firelord one week and then get conned by the Silver Fox the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Well said! Let me just add anyone wanting to nit-pick on the improbability of this fight going Spidey's way really needs to first question why any fight with the Kingpin was not over with a single punch landed to Fisk's fat head. Or many other villains who did not have super-strength, including Ock----theoretically, once you got past his arms, a single punch should have taken him out. Ah, the belief we must suspend if we are to enjoy a good comic!
    Yeah, Kinpin's a funny one. Miller was wise to make him more a of a DD villain, because if doesn't matter if Fisk is pure muscle, he shouldn't make Spidey break a sweat.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Batman's a different character, and quite honestly, he should ALWAYS win.

    Spidey's a bit trickier, in that he's all about potential, and he should occasionally pull off some stuff that amazes everyone, himself included.

    Simply put, he's the kind of guy who can take Firelord one week and then get conned by the Silver Fox the next.



    Yeah, Kinpin's a funny one. Miller was wise to make him more a of a DD villain, because if doesn't matter if Fisk is pure muscle, he shouldn't make Spidey break a sweat.
    Yup. One reason I really, really enjoyed "Back In Black" was seeing Spidey give Fisk the beatdown he always should have.
    I miss Kevin Nichols. Not as much as bacon, but still...

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Batman's a different character, and quite honestly, he should ALWAYS win.

    Spidey's a bit trickier, in that he's all about potential, and he should occasionally pull off some stuff that amazes everyone, himself included.

    Simply put, he's the kind of guy who can take Firelord one week and then get conned by the Silver Fox the next.



    Yeah, Kinpin's a funny one. Miller was wise to make him more a of a DD villain, because if doesn't matter if Fisk is pure muscle, he shouldn't make Spidey break a sweat.
    In "Back In Black" it was established that Peter always held back in his fights with normal humans.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member norj's Avatar
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    Well we now know that Spidey draws his power from the Web of Life a multi-versal source of energy, his wining becomes more plausible.

  12. #12
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    It’s a great moment for Spidey and Frenz does an amazing job capturing the frenetic nature of the attack and I love the way DeFalco has Spider-Man not even know that he’s won.

    Buuuut…it still doesn’t really make sense. Firelord should be able to take those punches, and even if you want to go with Spidey being able to use his Spider-sense to get out of the way of Firelord punching him back, Firelord should be able to fly off or go to an energy attack. He just dropped a building on him and it didn’t do anything and he just destroyed a city block on him and it didn’t do anything, so punching him a bunch of times really shouldn’t have had such an effect.
    I like the way the main thesis is exposed, in this article, with a lot of comic pages to support it. And the conclusion is succinct and covers, both the artistic and the internal coherence side of the story, good job.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Well said! Let me just add anyone wanting to nit-pick on the improbability of this fight going Spidey's way really needs to first question why any fight with the Kingpin was not over with a single punch landed to Fisk's fat head. Or many other villains who did not have super-strength, including Ock----theoretically, once you got past his arms, a single punch should have taken him out. Ah, the belief we must suspend if we are to enjoy a good comic!
    Actually, the better the comic, the less of disbelief we have to suspend; Spider-Man beating Firelord, the very same month he got trashed by sin-eater (basically a guy on drugs) was paradoxical to say the least.

    More…

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Well said! Let me just add anyone wanting to nit-pick on the improbability of this fight going Spidey's way really needs to first question why any fight with the Kingpin was not over with a single punch landed to Fisk's fat head. Or many other villains who did not have super-strength, including Ock----theoretically, once you got past his arms, a single punch should have taken him out. Ah, the belief we must suspend if we are to enjoy a good comic!
    It's slightly more believable when Spidey has a tough time with Kingpin and the Enforcers when he's not powerful enough to take on former heralds of Galactus.

  14. #14
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    If people really feel the need to complain about the outcome, I say reconcile it with this fact.

    Franklin Richard's favorite superhero is Spider-Man

    Franklin has reality powers that are so powerful he can make Galactus his bitch.

    Franklin either actively or subconsciously empowered his favorite hero so that he could totally own Firelord in that fight.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    It's slightly more believable when Spidey has a tough time with Kingpin and the Enforcers when he's not powerful enough to take on former heralds of Galactus.
    Spidey hasn't had any real difficulties going one-on-one with Fisk since what, the 70s? It's an idea that Marvel backed off from a long time ago. After that it was always about Fisk manipulating other players and being untouchable.

    When street toughs give Spidey trouble, it's usually about them taking advantage of their environment. It doesn't matter if Spidey can rip your head off if he's not willing to let you fire into an open crowd while he does it.

    Sin Eater was mentioned, and that was a combination of various factors. Spidey's head was already in a bad place because of Aunt May's friend getting mugged, and Carter had taken a variation of the super soldier serum.

    In general, Spidey's limitations are mostly mental. He has a tendency to react emotionally. More often than not that works against him, but in the case of Firelord it was the extra edge he needed after wearing him down.

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