We need Steel to come back (Or make a real come back)

[Agent Z]

Pre New 52 the only credible uses of the character were Morrison's JLA and Joe Kelly's Superman stuff.

He's overall better off now. I could certainly do with more though.

And the guilt was an unnecessary element of the original. That's just Iron Man nonsense.

How as the guilt unnecessary? Iron Man isn't the only super hero who had that.

[Ascended]

Great posts Slaughter, certainty more articulate than anything I could write.

The Lex and Irons dynamic is interesting, though most likely not intentional, probably because Steel pulls off his end so easily and naturally, but its certainty a good analysis. I wouldn't mind seeing a story of that concept. Someone should make use of that.

One thing I wanted to mention is Steel definetly needs his construction background, maybe thats the prominent thing missing from the new52. Its sort of humbles him, grounds him, and it was essential to him being Supermans counter part. Plus it put him in the street level crime, seeing all those things personally. If his portrayal in the new52 is being mostly a lab man, then it doent give the same feel.

Was it established that John had a background in construction? I only recall it being what he did while he was using a fake name and hiding from his former employers (which is when he met Superman). I mean, I assumed he likely did some construction part-time in high school or college but dont remember it ever being said that it was a thing. But then, its been a long time since I read his solo title, and skipped the middle of it as well.

It is a nice touch though; now that you bring it up I hope Pak or somebody brings it into current continuity.

[manofsteel1979]

Was it established that John had a background in construction? I only recall it being what he did while he was using a fake name and hiding from his former employers (which is when he met Superman). I mean, I assumed he likely did some construction part-time in high school or college but dont remember it ever being said that it was a thing. But then, its been a long time since I read his solo title, and skipped the middle of it as well.

It is a nice touch though; now that you bring it up I hope Pak or somebody brings it into current continuity.

I don't have the issue handy, but didn't ACTION ANNUAL #1 end with him in south africa helping build schools or something of the like? If so, that's a definite nod to that part of his "history".

[Auguste Dupin]

I don't have the issue handy, but didn't ACTION ANNUAL #1 end with him in south africa helping build schools or something of the like? If so, that's a definite nod to that part of his "history".

I think he was using his scientifical knowledge to provide them with free energy, like, from the Sun or something. Which, if you ask me, is cooler than being a construction worker. It's a better use of talent and the fact he's doing it in the Third World makes it a probably more humbling experience.

[Thor-Ul]

Curiously in Marvel's Armor wars they made Jim Rhodes into Thor. Did somebody else notice similarities?:

[Deniz Camp]

How as the guilt unnecessary?

Because it is. Because Steel doesn't need to be motivated by guilt; he doesn't need any negative pressure to do good. Making the lives of people better and safer, upholding the dignity of the human condition, protecting the weakest and elevating the all by means of sweat, and intellect, and grace are a matter of course for him. These are deeply embedded in his DNA as a person. He doesn't need the horrors of his past as a carrot to do good works; the good works justify - and demand - themselves.

Iron Man is a selfish narcissist, and his origin is a reflection of that. He needed to be humbled, and brought face to face with the consequences of his actions in a very direct, literally crippling way. He needed to be made to understand what it was to be weak, and powerless -- and only then did he understand that he was (partially) responsible for making millions feel that way, and worse, that he was (indirectly) a mass murderer. And so atonement is his story -- and yet he's never really changed, not really. He's still the guy who does it to be glorious.

I'm not saying that only Iron Man has that kind of inherently selfish outlook. Spider-Man is the example of a good kid who lost his way for a little bit and suffered the consequences and is atoning for that day after day -- every time he's fighting the Vulture or Doc Oc, he's fighting the mugger who killed his uncle, he's fighting the shame and the weight of that. And that doesn't make him a less interesting character, but despite the fact that he takes a lot of crap, he's still very self centered in those early books. It's constantly 'woe-is-me, Mary Jane don't like me!" or what have you. He's a stand in for a teenager, and teenagers are narcissists. So fair enough.

But that isn't John Henry Irons, by any stretch of my (fairly powerful) imagination. Steel, Iron Man and Lex Luthor exist on a kind of moral axis, as I see it. All three are geniuses, and all three of them are more interested in the application of that genius in terms of the "power dynamic" -- the impact on that genius on society. They are what Michel Foucault called 'universal intellectuals', if you want, whose interest went outside of their own field, spanning others, natural outgrowths or tangentially related. For them, technology is not an end in and of itself, but rather a means to that end. And while each has a different end, they are all rooted in people, in the organization of societies and culture, in ownership and leadership. Which makes sense, because these are fundamentally engineers, and engineers (as opposed to, say, theoretical physicists) are much more interested in the utility of an idea, rather than the idea itself (much to the lamentation of Feynman).

Lex Luthor is, of them all, the ultimate narcissist of course. For him, invention, technology, innovation isn't anything but a path to his own glory, a way of getting noticed, of everyone understanding what he knows instinctively; that he is the greatest man there has ever been, or will ever be. He would push himself only insofar as he needs to to get noticed. Which, in a world whose skies are filled with flying men, means pushing himself very far indeed. He'll build, and do wonderful things...but because his own agenda is greater than any other, he'll work outside any system of law or order that he needs to, to get things done.

Tony Stark genuinely wants to make the lives of people better -- but it's also critically important that he gets noticed, and gets rich, doing it. The glamor and the glory and the wealth are important to him -- not more important that everything else, but up there. Which is why you see him regularly fail moral tests that other heroes pass -- as in Kurt Busiek's Avengers under Morgan Le Faye's spell, or in Civil War. This need for acceptance and general aversion to hardship leads him to being a tool of others more often than other heroes, and also kind of a dick. His 'moment of realization' was genuine, but superficial, unable to overcome the inherent weakness of his character. He's a deeply flawed man trying to do better but still very much ruled by his flaws.

Steel isn't a narcissist at all. In fact, if he can be said to have a superhuman power, it is his empathy. No doubt it is in part because he grew up knowing what it was like to feel vulnerable, and frightened - and also loved. He was shown the value of community in a tangible way, and so the importance of community has stayed with him and focused his vision for his entire life. And, so, like the others, his interest is on how his intellectual gifts might be brought to bear upon the evils of the modern human condition (or should be), but unlike the others he doesn't have ulterior motives or deep character flaws. It also means he's got the least facility to make a difference, because in a capitalist economy wealth is power and he isn't very interested in accumulating personal wealth. I think, perhaps most interesting to me, is that being on the opposite end of that moral axis actually gives him one thing in common with Lex Luthor -- I think he's more likely to work outside of, or in direct conflict with, the institutions of infrastructure. Obviously for very different reasons and very different justifications, but nevertheless he's likely to countermand laws he sees as arbitrary or unjust. Because he doesn't much care what anyone things; the moral right of something doesn't need to be debated. It is self-evident.

And that's why he's part of Superman's world, and why he was identified in his earliest outings as the guy most like Superman. He can have melancholy, melancholy as big as a dead world, but he doesn't particularly need guilt. It adds nothing to him, his story, or his purpose.

[UltimateTy]

Curiously in Marvel's Armor wars they made Jim Rhodes into Thor. Did somebody else notice similarities?:

As someone that likes Steel and War Machine I found this really annoying but thankfully its just an Au character.

[Deniz Camp]

*puts back on his nerd hat and monacle*

Actually it was Mark Shultze, writer of MAN OF STEEL during that time that developed Steel the most during the early 2000's. That was a great time for Steel, but he kind of jumped the shark after that whole being killed by Proff. Hamilton, then being resurrected by Darkseid thing.

You're right!

[Deniz Camp]

A few further Steel comments I got from some thought today:

1. No appreciation here for Steel's series? Before Priest, I mean. Louise Simonson CREATED the character, 'sakes! More appreciation is due.

No, no love. Not for that whole series, but especially not for the Weezy run. It was genuinely awful. The Priest/Cowan run was better, but not enough. NONE of it showcased ANY of what makes Steel work, in my opinion, and none of it was even remotely technically able.

6. Where is Steel's rivet cannon? Really, where is it? The cannon is awesome.

Again, not for me. I want Steel to be a little bigger than that. He almost has to be, to be relevant in the DCU. That's what Morrison was able to do for him, without pushing it into insanity. But a rivet gun is not going to make him very functional. A hammer that manipulates kinetic energy and inertia, okay, that's a decent start. Even better is his current nano-particle costume, though.

[Cypher]

Was it established that John had a background in construction? I only recall it being what he did while he was using a fake name and hiding from his former employers (which is when he met Superman). I mean, I assumed he likely did some construction part-time in high school or college but dont remember it ever being said that it was a thing. But then, its been a long time since I read his solo title, and skipped the middle of it as well.

It is a nice touch though; now that you bring it up I hope Pak or somebody brings it into current continuity.

I don't have the issue handy, but didn't ACTION ANNUAL #1 end with him in south africa helping build schools or something of the like? If so, that's a definite nod to that part of his "history".

Yeah before he starts his career with Supes hes working on the metropolis buildings. He left his weapons making job to go work a not so good one because of his morals. And it introduced him to reality and the crime. If thats not honorable, I dont know what is.

I think he was using his scientifical knowledge to provide them with free energy, like, from the Sun or something. Which, if you ask me, is cooler than being a construction worker. It's a better use of talent and the fact he's doing it in the Third World makes it a probably more humbling experience.

Yeah, I like him as a suit being wealthy helping out the world. Its a powerful image and good for the kids. But the lowly construction part of what made Steel the hero he is and an extremely important part of the character, in both experience and demonstrating who he is. Its not about the money, and that morals matter. And that although hes ultimately rich and powerful, thats not what means everything to him.

Steel being a man whos mostly just a scientist trapped in a lab now isnt as great.

[Deniz Camp]

I don't see anything particularly moral in one of the smartest people on the planet using his time doing construction - a job that many, many others are qualified to do - when he could be contributing much, much more by using his unique talents to have a meaningful impact.

Frankly it's a waste of his time, and while he may get a lot of satisfaction out of it I'd say that doing it for that reason actually makes it SELFISH. Classic Good Will Hunting Dilemma.

[Cypher]

Well its not that the job is good. Construction sucks, thats the point.

Its not a high level job. It just a demonstration of the character, that he's willing to be poor for what he thinks is right. And ultimately in his experience he goes back to being technological and making use of himself as he should, hes a guy full of potiential. He's seen things first hand when he was working that and struggling with his morals. Its a meaningful life-experience is the point. (Hopefully, you read my post, because thats what I said earlier).

A guy whos seen the crummy side of life, has seen what his destructive creations have done personally, and lives to serve man in his fullest is much more interesting than a guy whos just been in a lab his whole life. Plus, where do you think he gets to swing a giant badass Hammer that also becomes a testament to his personality?

[Deniz Camp]

I didn't read your post, but I disagree strongly that having a background in construction is selfless for someone who could be doing much, much more. There are other, bigger, better ways to show his care for a community than putting him in a job that doesn't suit him.

Life experience is great. There are plenty of really meaningful life experiences that he might have had growing up where he did. As an adult I tend to think a socially responsible Steel would be more concerned with using his talents and abilities to help those around him as much as possible. I also think, being part of a science fiction universe like the DCU, it lacks a certain dynamic sensibility, the kind of wonderment I want/expect from the universe.

The work he was said to be doing in that Annual, for instance, is much more appropriate I think.

As for the hammer, you know that it comes from a folk hero, don't you? The whole character does.

[Auguste Dupin]

Well its not that the job is good. Construction sucks, thats the point.

Its not a high level job. It just a demonstration of the character, that he's willing to be poor for what he thinks is right. And ultimately in his experience he goes back to being technological and making use of himself as he should, hes a guy full of potiential. He's seen things first hand when he was working that and struggling with his morals. Its a meaningful life-experience is the point. (Hopefully, you read my post, because thats what I said earlier).

A guy whos seen the crummy side of life, has seen what his destructive creations have done personally, and lives to serve man in his fullest is much more interesting than a guy whos just been in a lab his whole life. Plus, where do you think he gets to swing a giant badass Hammer that also becomes a testament to his personality?

I think a guy who has been living among a Third World Tribe (as in, actually living with them) for about 3-4 years knows a lot more about the "crummy side of life" than a guy who worked as a construction worker in the US. I mean, we are talking about people who don't necessarily have the privileges we take for granted, like free water, or electricity.

[Cypher]

As for the hammer, you know that it comes from a folk hero, don't you? The whole character does.

You know that the folk hero was a railroad construction worker, dont you?

Also, if you've not read the old pre-52 Steel comics, John Henry Irons goes back to being wealthy after becoming Steel.