Tilting at Windmills - Mar 20, 2015

[CBR News]

Brian Hibbs look at the order challenges for "Convergence" and "Secret Wars" and why both happening at the same time is a risk for the market.


Full article here.

[JohnNorthey]

I remember for years wanting to have my own store (much like many fans) but reading this reminds me of why I never took serious steps towards it. Seems like DC is being smart here - pushing returnability rather than big discounts Marvel's will create a bigger short term profit but DC's might lead to more long term - as stores order more copies that they have to return but also gives them an incentive to push Convergence more than Secret Wars (as I suspect few will go for Marvel's order tons and get a big discount program).

This also provides a good 'jumping off' point for older readers. A few years back I found a good one for myself to jump out of the market mostly (used to spend $40+ a week, now I just get a few as trade paperbacks). These mega line wide programs helped drive me away. They can be fun (I remember the original Secret Wars and the excitement over 'why did the Thing leave the FF, Spiderman get that new costume, etc.'). If Marvel goes as most figure with basically a 'new 52' reboot I suspect many more will see it as a good jumping off point.

[cranger]

I really hope these two events don't mess up a lot of stores. I know I am skipping them and I am looking forward to DC's June wave of new books but I preorder everything so I am not sure how that affects my FLCS.

If Marvel has some plan to maintain 100K sales for 10 or more titles that will really shock me. I always saw one of the problems as too much choice. Unless they are going to decrease the number of titles by a lot, and maybe reduce double shipping, won't they have the same problem of the Marvel reader's monthly dollar being too spread around? It does make wonder what Marvel's ultimate plan for September is because the offerings of Secret Wars looks like a lot more variety rather.

[scout]

I'm one of those that is using this opportunity to trim back on titles and refocus my spending in new lines.
Marvel is basically Darth Vader only for me.
DC gets a big cull from 20 down to 9 returning, and 2-3 of the new titles.
What I have been adding is Valiant which has gone from 2 to 7-8 titles a month.

I'm not buying any of the Convergence minis except for the main title and nothing from Secret Wars. My comic spending is definitely dropping this spring and into summer.

[Derek Metaltron]

The amount of people who believe that Marvel is rebooting New 52 style after SW disturbs me, because they're really not going to, or at least in way people seem to imagine. At least Secret Wars means something anyway, Convergence seems to be one giant nostalgia exercise which has no impact on its comics going forwards, besides one title with the former Earth 2 types. Secret Wars has gotten me excited for an event that most others haven't, though I recognise that there is a question of lots of stuff at once and most without a definite knowledge of them being ongoing or simply being a stealth mini.

Hopefully the elements which Secret Wars releases will stick and form a combo of Battleworld and maybe a new merged Earth with elements of some of the universes, hopefully not resorting to petty needs as erasing memories to make past continuity pointless. Marvel knew when they made Marvel NOW! that going the same way as DC and the New 52 isn't needed.

[lukeforney]

I seem to be the exact opposite of everyone else. I'm going to be picking up my first DC comics in years following Convergence. Not a lot, mind you (3 Convergence tie-ins, one new series after Convergence ends), but that's still more than my current number of zero. My Marvel numbers look to double (in number of titles, not factoring in double shipping). As a reader, I well be spend more money than I typically do.

[cranger]

The amount of people who believe that Marvel is rebooting New 52 style after SW disturbs me, because they're really not going to, or at least in way people seem to imagine.

Not to turn this into a reboot thread, but if they do not reboot then how does SW mean anything? By that I mean if SW is the Marvel Universe going forward, and any number of these books stick around (meaning these versions of the characters become the versions of the characters) then I don't care where their memories come from, it is a reboot of some sort (and I don't care how Marvel spins it). If it all goes back to the 616 status quo for 95% or whatever of the characters, just like Age of Apocalypse, then no SW did not matter any more than Convergence which happens in the DCU and will probably have involved at least a few DCU characters.

[Krypto_16]

Now would be a good time to move/gently nudge/push readers onto other series and books like Image, Archie and IDW carry.

Just a thought.

I am not getting a lot of Marvel, actually any I think, and not a lot of DC during all this shake up. Perhaps if their sales plunk Marvel and DC will finally get the message. Until that happens, all will remain the same. But I'm sure the opposite will happen. Stores will under order, people will love something stupid, and everyone will want a copy of it and I can see some random Convergence or Marvel Title going on Ebay for 100's of dollars because some random character appearead in a book who will not get a series or ever return. As for all the number ones . . . they always sell. Especially Marvel and DC. Doesn't mean they'll be worth anything or go anywhere but there are speculators and those are the books most comic shops push on newbie readers. I've seen it happen, time and again.

[Mark]

I really think that marvel and dc are just too arrogant to think that this won't work. They are the Big 2, the comic world revolves around them and the retailers are stuck with what ever they choose do to give them.
For myself the big events have pushed me away from both of them. With big events you have out of character writing, rushed and sloppy plots and overpricing. Not worth it when I can pick this stuff up out of the discount box in a year or two. I'll get one or two issues out of the mess for DC, but nothing from marvel.

[CSTowle]

I'm buying 7 of DC's tie-in 2 issue mini-series, skipping the main series, and skipping all of Secret Wars so far. Still haven't figured out which titles are on hiatus (all Marvel, right?), and which are going to be cancelled or have creator team changes (which probably means I'll stop buying them, depending). It's annoying to me, as I skip all events unless I feel I can't miss it (and that's only happened with Multiversity, and again there I've mainly been buying the tie-ins) but I know I'm in the vocal minority because these events always sell. I'll look forward to this fall though, when I have an idea of exactly how many titles I'll be buying from the Big 2.

[Derek Metaltron]

Not to turn this into a reboot thread, but if they do not reboot then how does SW mean anything? By that I mean if SW is the Marvel Universe going forward, and any number of these books stick around (meaning these versions of the characters become the versions of the characters) then I don't care where their memories come from, it is a reboot of some sort (and I don't care how Marvel spins it). If it all goes back to the 616 status quo for 95% or whatever of the characters, just like Age of Apocalypse, then no SW did not matter any more than Convergence which happens in the DCU and will probably have involved at least a few DCU characters.

It's not for certain but if the environment changes (either Battleworld or a merged version of Earth or both or a easier take on a multiverse) but the 616 and Ultimate and other character memories of what has gone before remain, it's not a reboot, because all that came before still counts. Think of the 2009 Star Trek film and imagine if not just Spock but the entire TNG, DS9 and Voyager crews had come with him. It's a new universe with a New Kirk but there's still Picard and company and they know all the stuff which happened in their own prime universe still.

[Fifolet]

Yeah, it can't be easy for a retailer to make order decisions when the fans are scratching their heads as well on what to pre-order. I remember talking to the owner of my LCS last month about this, and he pointed out that it's not only Marvel, but DC as well. Forget about returnability, since we're located outside the US.
From a personal point of view, the Marvel side is what worries me since i pretty much dismissed DC after 52. Secret Wars has that same potential. This will either have good new titles coming out during Secret Wars and pay off beautifully in the end, or it will be a trainwreck that'll drive a lot of long time readers away. I don't think there'll be a middle ground. I'm hopping for the best, but ready for the worst. I wish retailers would have it that simple.

[cranger]

It's not for certain but if the environment changes (either Battleworld or a merged version of Earth or both or a easier take on a multiverse) but the 616 and Ultimate and other character memories of what has gone before remain, it's not a reboot, because all that came before still counts. Think of the 2009 Star Trek film and imagine if not just Spock but the entire TNG, DS9 and Voyager crews had come with him. It's a new universe with a New Kirk but there's still Picard and company and they know all the stuff which happened in their own prime universe still.

Yeah, in that case (616 and Ultimates merge) I would not describe it as a New 52 style reboot, but then doesn't that make just about every series other than Secret Wars and Ultimate End (or whatever it is) not matter? That is more what I was getting at. Not the main series itself but the twenty or so other books that do not seem to be able to matter unless Marvel changes things up a lot more than creating the Ultimate 616.

[Darth Weevil]

I really hope these two events don't mess up a lot of stores. I know I am skipping them and I am looking forward to DC's June wave of new books but I preorder everything so I am not sure how that affects my FLCS.

If Marvel has some plan to maintain 100K sales for 10 or more titles that will really shock me. I always saw one of the problems as too much choice. Unless they are going to decrease the number of titles by a lot, and maybe reduce double shipping, won't they have the same problem of the Marvel reader's monthly dollar being too spread around? It does make wonder what Marvel's ultimate plan for September is because the offerings of Secret Wars looks like a lot more variety rather.

I could see it if they dramatically consolidate the line. One main Avengers book, one main X-Men book, etc. Major characters still get their own books, but no more of this "if you want to understand what's happening in X, you also have to buy A, B, C, and D." But no matter what anyone says, I don't think they have the ability to follow through—it always seems easier to get the marginal dollar from a fifth Avengers book than to increase total sales of the main book by decreasing the cost to follow it.

[HGeeK]

Yeah, in that case (616 and Ultimates merge) I would not describe it as a New 52 style reboot, but then doesn't that make just about every series other than Secret Wars and Ultimate End (or whatever it is) not matter? That is more what I was getting at. Not the main series itself but the twenty or so other books that do not seem to be able to matter unless Marvel changes things up a lot more than creating the Ultimate 616.

I'm not expecting a hard reboot, but there's little doubt in my mind that Marvel IS doing a soft reboot following Secret Wars. IF these new books covering previous "events" from years past do mean something to a cogent universe post-Battleworld, AND everyone remembers the events of Battleworld, then theoretically it alters the original timeline of the previous "events" that play out during Secret Wars. I hope I'm not confusing everyone. Essentially, any ripple that happens differently during an "event" in Battleworld changes the entire "event" and would alter EVERYONE'S perception of the event post Secret Wars. That's a "soft" reboot. To have it play any other way is simply confusing.

An (not completely accurate) example: Say Jean Grey dies in Inferno, but through the various actions of Cyclops, Majik, Colossus, whoever during Battleworld she lives. Which history do the characters retain post Secret Wars? Would they remember that she both died and lived? How? Why? Say Jean dies in Inferno anyway, but in a completely different fashion than she did in the original timeline, doesn't that STILL confuse the characters as to which history is correct?

Making matters worse is the description of "The Ultimate Universe, the Marvel Universe, they're going to slap together. Imagine two pizzas: They're going to combine toppings, some toppings are going to drop off". So, if we disregard the reboot theory, does that mean we could end up with "Ultimate Universe" Captain America teaming with "Armor Wars" Tony Stark, alongside the new female Thor? Are we expected to believe that all these characters will retain the memories of their respective worlds, timelines, and past relationships as they come together in the "new" Marvel U to form a new Avengers?

Yeah, maybe it's cool in theory, but it will confuse new and casual readers who know these characters should have history together due to cartoons and/or films, but act as if they've never met before. Adversely, it could cause long-term readers to give up all together with this new "mash-up" Marvel Universe.