SUPERMAN 2000 pitch: The biggest missed opportunity of the past 20 years? Or bullet dodged?

[manofsteel1979]

So, discussing and ruminating over the last 20 years worth of Superman lately got me thinking about the famous/infamous "Superman 2000" pitch by Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Mark Millar and Tom Peyer that was pitched to DC editorial in 1998, was approved and then scuttled at the last minute due to inter company politics, leading to the late 1999 mini-relaunch under Jeph Loeb, Joe Kelly, Stuart Immonen and others....to mixed results.

Here is a run down of the plan from various sources:

https://sites.google.com/a/deepspace...storynevertold

http://graphicontent.blogspot.com/se...202000%20pitch

http://theages.ac/History/2000/

http://ifanboy.com/articles/yesterda...superman-2000/


At the time, when I heard the rumblings about this in early 2000 via Wizard, I was glad it got scuttled. I was quite happy with the Loeb/Kelly run at the time, and based on only the few details that were divulged (the biggest one was *gasp!* undoing the Lois and Clark marriage and erasing her knowledge of the secret ID ) I saw it as a bullet dodged...a catastophe averted. I mean they wanted to pretty much bring back the Pre-Crisis Superman!!!! How dare they get rid of MY Superman!!! I mean, they got rid of the other Superman in 1986 because he was an over powered boring boyscout without character depth, right? I mean, the newer version just HAD to be better. I mean, New Coke was better! (oh wait....)

Of course, this was all before I discovered the joys of bronze age Superman and stories like "Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" "For the Man who has everything"..."who took the Super out of Superman", "Superman #400" etc...and before the hell that would befall the Superman titles and the Superman franchise from around 2004 onward until the last year or so.

Now 15 years older, when reading most of the proposal thats out there....in my opinion It was likely the single biggest missed opportunity creatively ever for Superman. They weren't going to reboot anything. "My" Superman was still going to be at the heart of it. They merely were going to grow things outward into something I think that would have made fans of all Superman era's happy. It was pure genius in my opinion, and had it been implimented...well....I don't think the New 52 reboot would have occurred to the extent it did for Superman, and his franchise would be in a stronger place than it found itself in.

A couple bullet points for those who don't want to read all of those links, what the biggest changes were...

1)Superman's powers and intelligence would increase closer to his Pre-Crisis self due to he going through a natural evolution due to all the solar energy he had been absorbing all his life.

2) as a result of the first part, Superman builds a new Fortress, his relationship to how he perceives the world changes, thus his "Clark Kent" identity becomes bit more of a mask than it had been since the 1986 reboot.

2)Luthor would be revealed to be more than a skinny kingpin....Lexcorp is only a small tiny part of his day. It's effectively Lex's secret identity.

3) Most of Superman's rogues would be reimagined entirely.

4) An early version of the proposal did include the erasure of the Lois/Clark marriage and her knowledge of the secret ID, but eventually that was abandoned.

5)Jonathan Kent would die, leaving Martha widowed, adding a touch of tragedy to Clark/Kal's life.

and finally...

6) There would be a *GASP!!!!!* new TRUNKLESS costume for Superman!!!!

So...what are your thoughts? Nerd rage it was scuttled?Missed opportunity? Curious but skeptical? Disaster averted? or are you just "Meh"? Vote, then discuss!!!

[Bruce Wayne]

To this day I wonder who was the DC editor that canned this. But some of these ideas were later implemented, but not widely embraced such as super intelligence.

[Superlad93]

Every single time I try and forget that this could have been a thing I'm reminded, and it hurts even more. Some of the greatest instant classic Superman stories of the last 15 years have grown out of this idea. Three of these writers are virtually known as authorities on the character these days. The passion that radiates off their work with the character is infectious to not only fans but writers alike. I for one enjoyed the character growing up, but I never had a passion for him. I hadn't even started reading comics yet. But then I heard about All Star Superman randomly. I checked it out and it was like this moment of clarity for me. The character really came alive for me reading those issue. Then when I scrambled to pick up more of Morrison's stuff (along with Millar and Waid's stuff) you can imagine my disgust when I heard that DC told these fine men that they couldn't have the keys to the big house. It was like finding out Santa wan't real the day after the best Christmas ever.

Needless to say I forever hold this against DC (along with Hypertime) as one of the biggest misses ever. And what's even funnier is that every time one of these guys writes a great Superman story they point back to Superman 2000 and pretty much say "see this could have been in there". It's the swift boot that just wont stop kicking DC in the ass over and over again. What's even funnier is that these stories and writers have informed other writers so strongly on the character that they damn near quote lines from the now famous works (Man of Steel anyone?). I just like....damn DC, come on bruh..

But ok thinking a bit more objectively I can see some ideas that would have maybe been a struggle for some to get through. The return the the Clark mask, more powerful Superman, pacifist Superman (I maintain that this take should still be given a chance as I just wanna see it done in earnest, and I think it could be something fun an new), ending of the marriage (Spider-man and MJ might still have been a thing for fear of ripping this off), and the new suit.

But the way I see it is that I'd rather go through these jarring changes with a group of guys who have such an amazing well of passion for the character (and not that lip service bs that you have to say because you're writing him) than changes to the character by a boardroom. It would just be a group of guys talking on the phone about how much they love Superman and somehow ending up with a story. That's just so pure.

It would've worked so well. The writers were so self aware and humble. The highlighted their strengths and weakness in the pitch. I remember a line were (I'm guessing Morrison) said that he and Millar were sometimes not the best at running a tight ship and doing deadlines, but Waid was almost meticulous in this. His more concrete hard noised style would know when to bring down a young Morrison's wildest of ideas and condense it down into something more user friendly for the uninitiated, and he'd know when to let it run wild. Millar would bring that brand of pop commercialism but with that passionate flare to set it apart. He really does succeed in this area more than the other two as shown by Millarworld. They would have balanced each other out so well, and created this nearly perfect Superman writer between them (I personally haven't read up on Peyer but I'm sure if he was considered to be involved it was with good reason).

Just think of this alternate world: Millar stays at DC as opposed to Marvel and possibly starts a DC ultimate line and other great events. Then after Millar world is started he still has good will from DC and he either writes a that "Godfather" Superman 3 part epic movie or he turns it into a graphic novel in place of Earth One. Morrison or Waid take on John's position as creative director (Waid more likely I think) and it's just this beautiful blending of the accessible new and the fondly remembered old, but also the radically experimental (essentially what John's does but...well...just way better). Also Hypertime epic story line. The new 52 might still happen but either Superman doesn't really need a reboot but just a hip new direction after a decade of fantastic and innovative story from the best template ever. Or he may get that total reboot but with a stronger and more focused direction that doesn't leave some of my older peeps so cold yet is so new and interesting it draws in the new fans (Morrison came up with the T-shirt and Jeans era super-radical Superman after all).

But then again I might not have read All Star Superman and fell in love with the character in the first place. Or it may have come out anyway but in a new form (just as long as it's got that FQ art, son!) so who knows. I picked the "damn you DC!!! Why can't we have nice things?" in case anyone was wondering.

[Ascended]

A lot of what is in that pitch ended up happening anyway (in one form or another)......but damn DC, what could have been?

Honestly though, I likely would not have recognized the brilliance of it all back then. This was shortly before I began my journey into Superman's past and found out what he was *really* about. So having only the post-Crisis stuff (which wasnt as bad then as it would become) to judge by, I'd have probably been displeased. Especially with the marriage being undone (something I still dont approve of in the 52).

Superman 2000 *could* have been the thing that put Superman back on top though. Shame it didnt happen. If nothing else, it could not have been any worse than what we got through the 2000's.

[manofsteel1979]

A lot of what is in that pitch ended up happening anyway (in one form or another)......but damn DC, what could have been?

Honestly though, I likely would not have recognized the brilliance of it all back then. This was shortly before I began my journey into Superman's past and found out what he was *really* about. So having only the post-Crisis stuff (which wasnt as bad then as it would become) to judge by, I'd have probably been displeased. Especially with the marriage being undone (something I still dont approve of in the 52).

Superman 2000 *could* have been the thing that put Superman back on top though. Shame it didnt happen. If nothing else, it could not have been any worse than what we got through the 2000's.

Yeah, much like you, I would have likely have disliked it intensely. All I knew was the Reeve movies, Superfriends, a couple goofy old 60's Superman comics that belonged to my older brother. All I knew was Post-Crisis Superman. I believed the company line of DC at the time. Pre-Crisis=all bad, current Superman = good.

I think it could have worked very well. Yes most of those ideas are present in the current DCU Superman...but look what it took to get us to that character. It was a messy 11 years that resulted in a reboot that not only tossed out the crap, but a lot of good stuff too. The 2000/Now pitch wouldn't have thrown anything Byrne or the then current creative teams did out...it would have just continued organically from what came before. Plus, Waid and co eventually backed off of erasing the marriage, so it's highly likely that unlike later creative teams, we would have actually had a group of creators that would have made that such an intrinsic part of the mythos that I doubt it would have been tossed out when the New 52 happened. I imagine since the New 52 started as a discussion to fix Superman....we may have never even had a New 52. Sigh. What could have been indeed.

[Ascended]

Yeah, much like you, I would have likely have disliked it intensely. All I knew was the Reeve movies, Superfriends, a couple goofy old 60's Superman comics that belonged to my older brother. All I knew was Post-Crisis Superman. I believed the company line of DC at the time. Pre-Crisis=all bad, current Superman = good.

I think it could have worked very well. Yes most of those ideas are present in the current DCU Superman...but look what it took to get us to that character. It was a messy 11 years that resulted in a reboot that not only tossed out the crap, but a lot of good stuff too. The 2000/Now pitch wouldn't have thrown anything Byrne or the then current creative teams did out...it would have just continued organically from what came before. Plus, Waid and co eventually backed off of erasing the marriage, so it's highly likely that unlike later creative teams, we would have actually had a group of creators that would have made that such an intrinsic part of the mythos that I doubt it would have been tossed out when the New 52 happened. I imagine since the New 52 started as a discussion to fix Superman....we may have never even had a New 52. Sigh. What could have been indeed.

This is why control of the franchise needs to be given to us. We'd have had the good sense to let this happen.

[The Kid]

This is the first time I've heard of this and I gotta say.. it sounds incredible

[manofsteel1979]

To this day I wonder who was the DC editor that canned this. But some of these ideas were later implemented, but not widely embraced such as super intelligence.

Rumor has it it was Mike Carlin, who apparently was more upset that his guys Jurgens, Ordway and Simonson (who had been on the books since he was editor)were suddenly fired than anything....although some rumor it to have been Paul Levitz. I think its more likely the former as the proposal pretty much reversed everything he and his group set up,albeit in story and not retconned/erased. Understandably it was a feeling of hurt pride if that was the case.

[manofsteel1979]

This is why control of the franchise needs to be given to us. We'd have had the good sense to let this happen.

If by "we" you are talking about you, me, Adkal and perhaps Dispenser of Truth and Sacred Knight...yeah WE should be running the show... because we are awesome.

However, if you'd open it up to all of Superman fandom....it would be a disaster!!! We can't even all agree over whether he should wear trunks or not or the length of his cape!!!

Seriously though. I shake my head. Such a shame.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

For those who haven't read it, theages.ac is the best link, it has it all in one place. The marriage bit might have been something of a dealbreaker for me--though it sounds as well-handled as it ever reasonably could have been--but I know that didn't make it into the final pitch. Also worth noting that A) Peyer confirmed in an interview that he hadn't ended up contributing anything by the time this was struck down, and B) there are two versions of the pitch: Superman 2000, which we've seen, which was apparently mostly Waid (hence the dissolution of the marriage, which he was never a fan of), and Superman NOW by Morrison, which remains under wraps. Also, as far as it getting struck goes, there's the obvious thing of the team being told they could never write the main Superman books, which took 12 years to get undone with Morrison taking on Action, but according to Waid

"worst of all is a part of it that all four of us had to endure--Grant, Mark Millar, Tom Peyer and myself--that we choose not to talk about because it can to this day only make lots of lives more miserable."

Jesus. But yeah, history lesson aside, this would have been The Best. I mean, I'm sure some people would have disliked putting Morrison and Waid in charge of Superman as the wrested it away from the Byrne status quo, but they're, like, bad, wrong people with wrong, bad thoughts about things, Superman-things especially. The only consolations are that we probably wouldn't have gotten All-Star, which is worth any number of **** Superman books in the interim, and odds are the art would have been lousy.

Oh, and the trunkless Superman was also originally going to appear in All-Star, if only for a brief sequence, but that didn't happen either.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

pacifist Superman (I maintain that this take should still be given a chance as I just wanna see it done in earnest, and I think it could be something fun an new), ending of the marriage (Spider-man and MJ might still have been a thing for fear of ripping this off)

Ever read Joe Casey's run? He's the only writer I know of to deal with that idea directly, and his stuff was just magic.

[manofsteel1979]

For those who haven't read it, theages.ac is the best link, it has it all in one place. The marriage bit might have been something of a dealbreaker for me--though it sounds as well-handled as it ever reasonably could have been--but I know that didn't make it into the final pitch. Also worth noting that A) Peyer confirmed in an interview that he hadn't ended up contributing anything by the time this was struck down, and B) there are two versions of the pitch: Superman 2000, which we've seen, which was apparently mostly Waid (hence the dissolution of the marriage, which he was never a fan of), and Superman NOW by Morrison, which remains under wraps. Also, as far as it getting struck goes, there's the obvious thing of the team being told they could never write the main Superman books, which took 12 years to get undone with Morrison taking on Action, but according to Waid

"worst of all is a part of it that all four of us had to endure--Grant, Mark Millar, Tom Peyer and myself--that we choose not to talk about because it can to this day only make lots of lives more miserable."

Jesus. But yeah, history lesson aside, this would have been The Best. I mean, I'm sure some people would have disliked putting Morrison and Waid in charge of Superman as the wrested it away from the Byrne status quo, but they're, like, bad, wrong people with wrong, bad thoughts about things, Superman-things especially. The only consolations are that we probably wouldn't have gotten All-Star, which is worth any number of **** Superman books in the interim, and odds are the art would have been lousy.

Oh, and the trunkless Superman was also originally going to appear in All-Star, if only for a brief sequence, but that didn't happen either.

So far as the bolded...Wow...I wonder what THAT means?? There is just begging to be a tell all book about DC and specifically this that's dying to be written!

I also highly suspect that some of the stuff from the SUPERMAN NOW pitch not only made it into ALL STAR...but ultimately even FINAL CRISIS, the ACTION new 52 run and even MULTIVERSITY.

We all know BIRTHRIGHT (my fave modern Superman origin, even though I hated the fact it was dropped into the PostCrisis continuity the way it was) took a lot of pieces from The 2000/Now pitch. RED SON certainly used their version of Lex, albeit as a "good" guy.

[manofsteel1979]

Ever read Joe Casey's run? He's the only writer I know of to deal with that idea directly, and his stuff was just magic.

Ah...Joe Casey's ADVENTURES run. Another missed opportunity that actually got published. Unfortunately his run was cut short by DiDio's post SUPERMAN #200 revamp.

[Sacred Knight]

Definite missed opportunity. Would it have set the world on fire? I don't know. But what I do know is that the safe pitch they went with in Loeb turned out to be one that eventually set the tone for Superman falling out of mediocrity and into poor substance altogether.

[Ascended]

If by "we" you are talking about you, me, Adkal and perhaps Dispenser of Truth and Sacred Knight...yeah WE should be running the show... because we are awesome.

However, if you'd open it up to all of Superman fandom....it would be a disaster!!! We can't even all agree over whether he should wear trunks or not or the length of his cape!!!

Seriously though. I shake my head. Such a shame.

Of course I'm only talking about some of us, because the rest? Well,

they're, like, bad, wrong people with wrong, bad thoughts about things, Superman-things especially.

Joking aside, I'd really like to bend Waid's ear and get the behind-the-scenes story of what actually went down with all that. From what I hear, Waid can be pretty overblown at times so I'd rather ask Morrison, but I can't translate his accent.